Who should push a little more?

[Hanoi5]

♠AKx

♥x

♦Kxxxx

♣AJxx

 

♠QJxxx

♥Axx

♦AQx

♣xx

 

All white, MP's:

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥

2♠-4♠

P

[billw55]

Nobody. To bid this slam we would need to diagnose the perfect heart situation, the trump quality in the short hand, and the wealth of controls, all while keeping game safe since we hold only 28 hcp. It's beyond me but I expect our theorists will have a solution.

[Codo]

Opener has an very easy 3 ♠ bid to show his shape and his strength instead of his lame 2 ♠ bid. He cannot use the same bid for this hand and the same hand with a small spade instead of the ace...

 

So I would bid:

1♦ 1 ♠

2 ♣ 2 ♥

3 ♠ 4 ♦ (non serious slam try)

4 NT 5 ♠ (KCs- south cannot have less for a slam try without a club control opposite a 3154 hand.

6♠

[kenrexford]

It depends. Is 2♥ GF?

 

If 2♥ is GF, then 2♠ by Opener showed nothing special and gave lots of room to explore.

If 2♥ was not GF, then presumably 2♠ was passable, which makes Opener's rebid scary.

[phil_20686]

Opener is meant to bid 3S over fsf, after that he is known to be 3-1-5-4, and south hand looks gigantic. Cannot imagine missing small now. Probably can find grand if south bids keycard then finds out about the diamond K.

[whereagles]

Codo speakast teh truth!

[wank]

yes opener should jump to 3♠. he would bid 2♠ holding a 12 count with a doubleton.

 

in my experience it's a common error among intermediate players to refuse to jump in a game-forcing auction.

[jillybean]

I disagree. If 2♥ is gf 2♠ simply sets trump and south can now probe for slam. 4♠ was unimaginative.

[ArtK78]

I agree with 3♠ over 2♥. Opener's 2♠ bid shows spade tolerance and the inability to bid 2NT (or any other natural call). Opener might have 3 spades, but he is not guaranteeing more than a doubleton.

 

3♠ shows real spade support and possible slam interest.

 

This would be a typical 2♠ call over 2♥:

 

Ax

xx

Kxxxx

AQxx

[phil_20686]

I disagree. If 2♥ is gf 2♠ simply sets trump and south can now probe for slam. 4♠ was unimaginative.

 

two spades over 2h GF does not set trump, can be make on only two trumps and that kind of thing. Obviously depends on agreements, but what would you bid with Kx xx AQxxx KJxx ? Think 2s is fairly routine on this hand. Also should carry the inference of extras as with a min 3154 would raise spades at once.

[wank]

jillybean, 2♠ can't set trumps no matter what style you play - responder might only have 4 spades and opener obviously doesn't have 4 spades himself.

[jillybean]

Sorry, 2♠ shows 3 and suggests ♠ trump. Yes, opener could bid 3♠ but I still think 4♠ is unimaginative.

[Codo]

I guess in Europe 2 ♠ promises 3 spades nearly always, our catch all would be 3 ♦ the American way of life may be a little different. But even if 2 ♠ promises three, then - as Phil pointed out- it does not set spades as trump.

Of course it matters a lot whether or not you raise with 3154 spades directly quite frequently. In this case, Kx is more then enough for a latter raise with no other convincing bid avaiable.

[phil_20686]

I guess in Europe 2 ♠ promises 3 spades nearly always, our catch all would be 3 ♦ the American way of life may be a little different. But even if 2 ♠ promises three, then - as Phil pointed out- it does not set spades as trump.

Of course it matters a lot whether or not you raise with 3154 spades directly quite frequently. In this case, Kx is more then enough for a latter raise with no other convincing bid avaiable.

 

On reason to bid 2s on a doubleton is that when partner has a strong raise in clubs you dont want to drive him to the 4 level to show support. Esp when 3N might be the best spot.

[mikeh]

The key question is the meaning of 2♥....or perhaps more accurately.....does responder have the ability, for example, of showing a gf diamond or club raise other than by going through 2♥?

 

For most NA partnerships, in a 2/1 context, I suspect the answer to the 2nd framing of the question is: No.

 

I have seen pairs go completely off the rails when opener jumps to 3♠ and it turns out that responder wasn't looking for a 4-3 spade fit. Personally, I don't like allowing opener to jump to 3♠ unless we have agreed that this DOESN'T SET trump.

 

FSF can conveniently be taken as responder saying: We're going to game....I'll tell you what denomination I prefer next time.

 

So 1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♥ 3♠ 4♣/4♦ is natural and sets trump.

 

 

If you play 4m as a cuebid, then you can't, imo, allow opener to bid 3♠ over 2♥.

 

We can see how well 3♠ would have worked here, but make S Qxxx Axx AQxx xx, and it wouldn't be as good without agreement that spades are not yet trump. The same is true if S havd a big club fit.

 

Given these issues, my vote here is that S should have been able, over 3♠, to see that partner with 3=1=5=4 might have golden cards. It cannot hurt to bid 3♠, especially if the partnership has a form of good-bad 3N available to it. Even without that or similar devices, 3♠ would get N very excited.

[ggwhiz]

I make the ATB 50-50 in that I would have bid 2♠ over 1♠ and 3♠ over 2♠ or 2nt with as much as the ♥T to allow pard to confirm the third ♠.

 

I don't understand how any sytem where the 2♥ bid is not a gf is playable.

[gnasher]

I guess in Europe 2 ♠ promises 3 spades nearly always, our catch all would be 3 ♦

Wank and Phil_20686 both live in Europe.

[Fluffy]

4m over 3♠ sets ups minor as trumps as mikeh said. South will need to cue hearts (first cuebid avaible) or to bid blackwood. I don´t play the serious thing so don´t know if 3NT would be taken as setting spades.

[gnasher]

I don´t play the serious thing so don´t know if 3NT would be taken as setting spades.

3NT is natural, because you might have a hand which was interested in other strains but now is not. Jxxx AQJ xx KQxx, for example.

[kenrexford]

OK, here's my take.

 

I'll assume that 2♥ is GF. As such, I don't like bidding 2♠ as Opener with a doubleton, as that just makes things all the more messy. For the rare hand where 2NT is not the right call, I just rebid something else, usually a systemically-agreed "something else." For instance, I would prefer the 3♠ jump as precisely 5422 with a good doubleton spade and no heart stopper.

 

If you assume that 2♠ also promises three cards, then, you need some way to set spades as trumps, as 2♥ could presumably be bid with other GF hands without five spades. I like to dedicate 2NT in this sequence for that purpose. This saves space. With this actual hand, 2NT seems right, as Opener can have a fifth card in his diamonds and hence a trick source to make 6♠ easy to play and make with as few as about 26 HCP (AKQ in each of spades and diamonds, with two side Aces).

 

After 2NT, Opener can unwind his hand however you like. But, the 3154 shape is already known, so no need to splinter. You just start cuebidding, perhaps. My auction if cuebidding:

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥(GF)

2♠(3154 or better)-2NT(spades agreed)

3♣(control)-3♦(one of the top three diamonds)

3♠(not a void in hearts, and not the stiff Ace, but two of the top three spades)-3NT(serious)

4♣(the control is the Ace)-4♦(a second of the top three diamonds)

5♦(the third top diamond, no stiff King of hearts, no second club card)-6♠

 

That works. There are other variations.

[aguahombre]

3S instead of 2S is clear, and very old. Sometimes new isn't better when a totally descriptive natural old call can be made.

 

This might not be true if we don't like bids which describe our exact distribution and strength so partner can take over. If Partner is slamming in a minor, she can bid that minor over 3s. Otherwise, she can take over for spades or notrump.

Edited January 30, 2012 by aguahombre

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 

If you assume that 2♠ also promises three cards, then, you need some way to set spades as trumps, as 2♥ could presumably be bid with other GF hands without five spades. I like to dedicate 2NT in this sequence for that purpose.

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥(GF)

2♠(3154 or better)- 2NT! (spades agreed)

 

The rest of us would ( or at least I would ) have to bid 3♠ to agree spades with 5+ cards .

 

Any other3-level bid would deny 5 cards ♠, and 3♦ would agree ♦ just as mikeh said of 4♦ over Opener's 3♠-jump .

[ That is why I don't like the 3♠-jump ] .

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H!

2S ( 3 1 5 4 or better ) - 3S ( yes, agree ♠, I have 5+ cards; better than fast arrival 4S )

4C ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♠ )

5C ( 0/3 ) - 5H ( 2nd step = K-ask; 1st step would be trump Q-ask )

6D ( ♦K, no ♥K or ♣K ) - 6S

[the hog]

Opener has an very easy 3 ♠ bid to show his shape and his strength instead of his lame 2 ♠ bid. He cannot use the same bid for this hand and the same hand with a small spade instead of the ace...

 

So I would bid:

1♦ 1 ♠

2 ♣ 2 ♥

3 ♠ 4 ♦ (non serious slam try)

4 NT 5 ♠ (KCs- south cannot have less for a slam try without a club control opposite a 3154 hand.

6♠

 

I agree totally with Roland. 3S is obvious and 2S is a very weak bid.

[kenrexford]

The rest of us would ( or at least I would ) have to bid 3♠ to agree spades with 5+ cards .

 

Any other3-level bid would deny 5 cards ♠, and 3♦ would agree ♦ just as mikeh said of 4♦ over Opener's 3♠-jump .

[ That is why I don't like the 3♠-jump ] .

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H!

2S ( 3 1 5 4 or better ) - 3S ( yes, agree ♠, I have 5+ cards; better than fast arrival 4S )

4C ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♠ )

5C ( 0/3 ) - 5H ( 2nd step = K-ask; 1st step would be trump Q-ask )

6D ( ♦K, no ♥K or ♣K ) - 6S

i know that is what people play, but this seems like a very common auction, and worthy of more intelligent allocation of space.

[Statto]

I guess, like many things, some aspects here depend on your agreements, styles, and understandings B-)

 

FSF can conveniently be taken as responder saying: We're going to game....I'll tell you what denomination I prefer next time.

Assuming it's GF, I think a more common usage is to say: We're going to game... but I'm not sure where.

 

So 1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♥ 3♠ 4♣/4♦ is natural and sets trump.

If responder wants to say that, and they've already chosen the denomination as one of your minors, they could simply jump to 4♣/4♦ (assuming that's natural, forcing and agreeing suit) instead of 2♥, tho I know this misses out on some information gathering on the way B-)

 

... but make S Qxxx Axx AQxx xx ...

With this hand, responder has various options, including 2NT or 3♦ instead of 2♥; or 3NT over 3♠ after 2♥.

 

I don't understand how any sytem where the 2♥ bid is not a gf is playable.

It works fine, it's invitational+, and helps find the right contract. I play it this way and have not had a single instance where I've thought "if only our FSF had been GF" :ph34r:

 

The right contract might often be a partscore on a somewhat misfitting hand, so it's a huge advantage on some hands if you can find the right strain of partscore when there is no game. This could be worth 5-6 IMPs.

 

Who should push a little more?

If FSF is not GF, then 3♠ is forcing to at least game, suggesting a slam try in ♠.

 

If FSF is GF, then 3♠ is forcing to at least game, suggesting a slam try in ♠.

 

So I think North should bid 3♠ B-)