Meaning of double?

[Toradin]

Hi all,

 

I was playing in a new partnership (2/1) a few days ago when this situation came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjt4h6daq72caq985&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1h2c2hdp]133|200|Matchpoints[/hv]

 

Perhaps a first round takeout double would be better, but South chose to bid his clubs. What does North's double show, and would it matter if North was not a passed hand, or whether the partnership was playing NF free bids after overcalls? What would South's best bid be in this case?

 

Thanks!

[aguahombre]

North's double is a "responsive" double. It occurs when the opponents have bid and raised a suit, and you have bid in between. Unlike a negative double which merely shows the other major, a responsive double like this should show both of the unbid suits.

 

If partner can be trusted to know this, then you can show the diamond fit.

[sasioc]

I'd definitely have doubled the first time by South. North's double is takeout for me (although I am wondering where all the hearts are...) and would still be takeout by an unpassed hand and if we played NF free bids after overcalls. If North was an unpassed hand and a new suit would not be forcing, double is still takeout in principle but could be made on lots of hands that were too good to make a non-forcing bid of their suit as well as on hands that just wanted to compete the partscore.

 

As South I will bid 2NT (scrambling) because partner could have bid 2♠ with a half-decent 5 card suit so probably only has 4 of them, giving him something like 42xx or 43xx shape, in which case we have at least one fit in a minor, possibly a 9 card fit (4252 shape seems plausible, although perhaps not as likely as something like 4342). I disagree with aguahombre on one point - depending on your agreements about exactly how strong a 3♣ bid from North could be, I think you could double with some nasty shapes like 4333 if your hand is strong enough, which is why I bid 2NT rather than 3♦. I don't think that bidding 2NT will cause us to miss a diamond fit when we have it unless we also have a club fit (p is 4243).

[chasetb]

Most people I know would never dream of doubling on the first round with that hand; personally I approve of 2♣. North should have both suits, so let's show the Diamonds fit.

[mike777]

fwiw

 

some say 2clubs is clear

others say x is clear

 

for me this is really a borderline hand I can live with either.

 

 

in any event I would bid 2nt(minors) now given OP. but in b/i this can really be confusing if pard thinks you have long hearts and 2nt is natural.

[Codo]

I had double 1 ♥, second (VERY DISTANT) choice pass, 2 ♣ is "wrong".

Now, I am a lucky citizen and bid the suit where we have afit, diamonds.

[phil_20686]

I would have doubles first up. WOuld like partner to now what to do with 5 spades and they bid 5h.

 

In a competitive, or potentially competitive auction, question should be, if I only get the chance to make one bid, what best describes my hand? Here I would like to encourage partner to bid over 4H when he has length in any suit, so obvious to dble.

 

Having said that, this has turned out well, now I can bid 2N to show diamonds+clubs. Assuming I have that agreement. If not, just bid 3c. Partner should not be doubling with a poor hand and no club tolerance unless he is planning to convert to diamonds anyway. The double shows 4 spades imo, and 8-10 or so HCP

[phil_20686]

North's double is a "responsive" double. It occurs when the opponents have bid and raised a suit, and you have bid in between. Unlike a negative double which merely shows the other major, a responsive double like this should show both of the unbid suits.

 

If partner can be trusted to know this, then you can show the diamond fit.

 

Do not agree, think it shows 4 spades and club tolerance, If you are not able to get into this auction with KQxx Axxx xxx Jx you are playing losing bridge IMO.

[aguahombre]

Whether one agrees with how they want to use the double in the OP or not, I was describing what a Responsive Double was created to show in this situation.

 

One's personal style is certainly of concern only to them, but for the B/I Forum, I was merely explaining what is taught about this double. In some other milieau, we might debate the value of using a call just to show four of one suit which partner is unlikely to have 4 of himself.

[pooltuna]

Yet another member of the Bedlam Bridge Club? :)

[phil_20686]

Whether one agrees with how they want to use the double in the OP or not, I was describing what a Responsive Double was created to show in this situation.

 

One's personal style is certainly of concern only to them, but for the B/I Forum, I was merely explaining what is taught about this double. In some other milieau, we might debate the value of using a call just to show four of one suit which partner is unlikely to have 4 of himself.

 

I'm not sure who you think does this "teaching", but I am pretty sure that doubling without club tolerance is a No No. Just leads to -500 for nothing. Would you really double with a 4441 shape (stiff club) as your post suggests? Most of the time partner will have 6+ clubs and rebid 3c. If you want to wait for partner to have both suits and club tolerance you will be waiting a long time.

 

Its also hard to construct hands that would like to bid here but do not have either 4 spades or 3 clubs or a 3d bid. It is easy to construct hands that need to bid but do not have both spades and diamonds. Also, its routine to double here if you have 4 spades and a club raise.

 

While its unlikely partner has 4 spades, its equally unlikely that he has 4 diamonds. Thus you are basically suggesting that it should be impossible for advancer to double if he is not short in hearts. You should also play a natural 2N bid here imo.

 

Finally, the question in the OP is what is this double, the answer is definitely not "responsive" where I come from. "Negative" sounds closer to the truth, but you would also like to get spades into the auction on many hands where you are basically raising clubs, like AQxx xxx xx Qxxx, I think its normal to double here first. Partner does sometimes have 4 spades and when he does you pretty much always prefer to play there.

[ggwhiz]

I would think the book definition of responsive doubles is appropriate here as is a discussion of the style alternatives.

 

I have no strong opinion on double vs 2♣ but Bergen wants to have 6 of them or better quality.

 

My partner shows the unbid suits or is prepared for the consequences or they don't double knowing we are aggressive in re-opening on shape which I would have done here with double if 2♥ was passed back to me. If pard is looking at 3+ ♥ pass is auto with troublesome shape. That's very often how we find our ♠ fit.

 

No style I've seen here covers all the bases and I love 4-3 fits that ruff from the short side. I would bid 2♠ and yes, I've played in 3-3 fits and even made a couple when the opps think I have 4.

 

There, that should be the 14th different view in only 10 posts.

[cloa513]

Hi all,

 

I was playing in a new partnership (2/1) a few days ago when this situation came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjt4h6daq72caq985&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1h2c2hdp]133|200|Matchpoints[/hv]

 

Perhaps a first round takeout double would be better, but South chose to bid his clubs. What does North's double show, and would it matter if North was not a passed hand, or whether the partnership was playing NF free bids after overcalls? What would South's best bid be in this case?

 

Thanks!

If playing NF free bids, then X is close to penalty (capable of playing in 3C) if passed and definite penalty if passed because partner can easily bid 2S if a passed hand which means the same as a responsive double. South's hand is too poor quality in spades to double( certainly don't want a spade lead) even if you do do doubles with 3 spades.

[Codo]

If playing NF free bids, then X is close to penalty (capable of playing in 3C) if passed and definite penalty if passed because partner can easily bid 2S if a passed hand which means the same as a responsive double. South's hand is too poor quality in spades to double( certainly don't want a spade lead) even if you do do doubles with 3 spades.

No, Non forcing free bids are not part of this problem.

No, if you play NFB, the double is not close to a penalty double.

No,2 ♠ here carries not the same meaning as a responsive double.

No the south hand has not the wrong spade quality for a double.

No, a take out double does not command a spade lead.

[helene_t]

Since partner is a passed hand he could have bid 2♠ with five spades and another place to play (usually club tollerance but I think with 5♠-5♦ a 2♠ bid would also be fine). This means that the double tends to deny five spades. If 2NT shows this hand I will bid that of course but if I am afraid that p will take 2NT as natural then I bid 3♦. Bad luck if partner has Phil's hand but I think I would just raise club with that hand, which means that for me this double promises diamonds. This is not thew case if partner was unpassed, in which case he could have five spades. So it would be a lot more difficult. In some partnership I play raptor and then partner would not introduce a 4-card spade suit here but would use double to show specifically five spades (and a second place to play).

[Fluffy]

double by partner typically shows:

 

4+♠

4+♦

2+♣

8+ HCP

 

 

 

2♣ typically show:

 

6+♣

12+ HCP

 

so its wrong with this hand.

 

 

double on the other hand shows

 

3+♠

3+♦

3+♣

12+ HCP

 

Wich its perfect!

[Toradin]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the opinions. I was sitting in the North seat, and the hand I had was closest to what Phil_20686 suggested. I would assume that were we playing responsive doubles, I would have to pass with my hand, waiting for partner to possibly reopen with a double. Partner bid 2NT, presumably meaning it as asking me to choose a minor, but I was not on the same wavelength and passed, going 1 off. As it happens, we do not have a making contract at the 3 level, and the best result we could have taken was 500 in a 2♥X contract.

 

[hv=pc=n&n=skq62hj954djt6ckt]133|100[/hv]

[aguahombre]

The actual hand is a good example of when no bid fits, it is time to make no bid. You will get a great result if partner reopens, and a good result if he doesn't.

 

OTOH, if you think you must double with that hand, you will give partner nothing to do which will gain over your having passed..he won't have any idea that you have a directionless holding with 4 weak ones in their suit, only three pieces in diamonds, and only four cards in spades when you didn't double 1H originally.

 

That might be why the descriptions we find on-line about the double in this situation call it a responsive double showing both of the unbid suits. I have found only one exception: the article by Gavin in Brigewinners which shows a hand similar to the given one in this thread. Surely his partners know how to handle the continuations after such a double; mine expect 4+ in the unbid suits and probably 5 in diamonds. Neither he nor we would be defending 2H with the given overcall after advancer doubled.

 

The advocates of an original takeout double of 1♥ will buy the hand in spades at some level and are unlikely to score better than they would defending 2H.

[nigel_k]

IMO it's a mistake to try to get rich collecting a penalty when opponents are in their eight card fit at the two level and your trumps are Jxxx opposite a singleton. Sometimes the layout will be like this one where you have no eight card fit and/or can beat them by more than the value of your game or part score, but it's hard to diagnose those situations in the auction and you can't really do that here. The overcaller could reopen with a double on something like Jxx x Axx AQxxxx and 2♥ and 3♣ would both be cold. So if I did pass with the responding hand, I would bid 2♠ not pass over partner's reopening double.

 

I don't really have any strong opinion about the meaning of the double in the actual auction, but I would be reluctant to assume it must necessarily have diamonds if undiscussed. Regardless I would bid 2♠ on J10x instead of 3♦ as the overcaller because it's a level lower and we're playing matchpoints.