strong 2 suiter hand

[jtfanclub]

You say the requirements for a response to an unlimited 1 bid will not change, this will lead to ridiculous results when you pick up the rare or semi-rare 22+ balanced or 10+ trick hands where you open a 1 bid and miss game.

 

So you open them at game level.

 

Playing MPs, there's often no advantage to trying for slam unless it's absolutely certain. Most people will bid to the level of a 50% slam (or less), so not even trying for slam will be right half the time. Use your bidding space for something else.

 

A common fallacy is the frequency of a convention is all important.

 

No, it's the frequency of the convention times the bonus it gives you. 2 Clubs may be OK in IMPs, but I suspect you're almost as well off passing in MPs.

 

Hmmm...somebody feel nice enough to check that for me? What % of hands opened 2♣ go down on that nifty database you guys have?

[EricK]

A common fallacy is the frequency of a convention is all important. Certainly a weak 2C would be more frequent than 2C showing a strong hand. Yet that leaves you with no possible bid for hands that would normally be opened a strong 2C. You say the requirements for a response to an unlimited 1 bid will not change, this will lead to ridiculous results when you pick up the rare or semi-rare 22+ balanced or 10+ trick hands where you open a 1 bid and miss game. Even if partner finds a response you will not have a way to catch up. You sacrifice all this for the "advantages of a weak 2C bid." I will not even argue how negligible these advantages are compared to the sacrifice, it should be obvious. And I know many experts who would not open the hand posted at the beginning of this thread with 2C. The fact that they do not draw the line at this hand does not mean the line should never be drawn.

I would open this hand 2♣ because there is a huge risk of playing in 1♠ instead of 4♠ or 5♦ or 6♦ or even 4♥.

 

My point is that if you stubbornly refuse to open 2♣ on two suiters simply because the opponents might intervene, then you are making the 2♣ bid much rarer and also overloading the other openings. If you are going to do that, than you really might as well go the whole hog and play a totally different system where you don't use a strong 2♣ at all, as the ( frequency x IMP/MP gain per hand ) becomes too small.

 

You could easily move the balanced hands into a scheme like

 

multi 2♦ = 22-23 balanced or 26+ balanced

2NT = 24-25 balanced

 

and open strong single suiters at the one level (or play a stronger than normal Namyats type convention). There is more chance of the auction staying open if you have a strong single-suiter than a strong two-suiter because both opponents are likely to be short, and there are usually more high cards out (as you have spot cards in your long suit instead of high cards in the other suits).

 

Eric

[Guest Jlall]

So now you lose flexibility from whatever you previously played 2D opener as, you still have no bid for a hand like AKQxxx AKxx AK x...except to open 4S. Basically all strong 1 and 2 suiters you are opening 1 or game. when you miss grand opposite xx QJxx xxx Axxx and partner asks if he should have bid over your 4S opener, what will you tell him? or will you open 6S and get to that opposite --- Qxxxx xxxx xxxx? Now you are giving up any hope of constructive bidding, you are playing strong options in multi 2D, and for what? to have a weak 2 club opener? are you REALLY serious about this? This is bordering on the edge of ridiculous at this point. a weak 2C offers no great gains, and its losing any hope of constructive bidding on the hands where slam is most likely. Just because one doesnt open a 5350 hand with 21 points with 2C, a very complex hand that is hard to describe even without preempting yourself with a 2C bid, doesnt mean they should abandon their strong bid.

[jikl]

When I was much younger we used to play something called Myxomatosis 2s. They are fairly illegal now though. This was our structure:

 

2♣ Strong 2+ in ♣, or weak 2 in ♦, 2 suiter in ♥ and ♠ weak or strong, 21-22 bal or 29-30 bal

 

2♦ Strong 2+ in ♦, or weak 2 in ♥, 2 suiter in ♠ and ♣ weak or strong, 23-24 bal or 31-32 bal

 

2♥ Strong 2+ in ♥, or weak 2 in ♠, 2 suiter in ♣ and ♦ weak or strong, 25-26 bal or 33-34 bal

 

2♠ Strong 2+ in ♠, or 3♣ preempt, 2 suiter in ♦ and ♥ weak or strong, 27-28 bal or 35-36 bal

 

2NT 2 suiter in ♣ and ♥ or ♦ and ♠ weak or strong

 

3s were transfer preempts etc

 

Was a lot of fun to play because people were scared to bid over it and we could untangle the hands. Would be perfect for this hand :)

 

Sean

[EricK]

So now you lose flexibility from whatever you previously played 2D opener as, you still have no bid for a hand like AKQxxx AKxx AK x...except to open 4S. Basically all strong 1 and 2 suiters you are opening 1 or game. when you miss grand opposite xx QJxx xxx Axxx and partner asks if he should have bid over your 4S opener, what will you tell him? or will you open 6S and get to that opposite --- Qxxxx xxxx xxxx? Now you are giving up any hope of constructive bidding, you are playing strong options in multi 2D, and for what? to have a weak 2 club opener? are you REALLY serious about this? This is bordering on the edge of ridiculous at this point. a weak 2C offers no great gains, and its losing any hope of constructive bidding on the hands where slam is most likely. Just because one doesnt open a 5350 hand with 21 points with 2C, a very complex hand that is hard to describe even without preempting yourself with a 2C bid, doesnt mean they should abandon their strong bid.

Nowhere have I suggested opening strong 1 suiters with a game bid.

 

Playing multi 2D with one or more strong options is incredibly common.

 

2♣ 2♦ 2♠ 2NT 3♦ is no more or less pre-emptive on yourself than 1♠ (hope we don't get passed out) 1NT (phew!) 3♦.

 

There simply must be a better use for 2♣ than "only really, really, really strong hands and even then not 2 suiters" as that hand comes up about once every ten sessions at most. Whether it is a straightforward weak 2, or whether it some weak/strong combo I don't know. But I am sure that it must be wrong to waste it in the way some are suggesting.

 

Eric

[Guest Jlall]

so u have to open 11 trick 1 suited hands at the 1 level? thats great...and i dont think anyone opens NO 2 suiters with 2C.

[EricK]

so u have to open 11 trick 1 suited hands at the 1 level? thats great...and i dont think anyone opens NO 2 suiters with 2C.

But what do they do if the bidding comes back to them at the 5 level? (which is the common complaint voiced by people who don't want to bid 2♣ hands which are weak enough that you have a chance to actually pick up more than one of them in your lifetime)

 

Eric

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=s=saqj75haj10dakq53c]133|100|[/hv]

very simple question, no other options here.

2C here. It's actually an overbid, but since nobody play strong two, this hand is probably too risky to open 1S if your partner doesn't like to bid 1NT with 4-5 HCP, 3 spades with something like Kxx xxx Jxx xxxx, you might not make 6S which is a reasonable contract, but at least you want to play 4S. Also, facing xxx xxx xxx xxxx, you probably still don't mind 4S which needs some luck. Another bid problem is that if

you open 1S and jumprebid 3D, you still may miss an excellent 6D facing SKx HQxxx DJxx CQJTx, partner has no other choice here, but it's not clear for you to pull 3NT to 4D with your hand. If you overbid 2C, you'd probably find 6D in this layout:

2C 2D

2S 2N

3D 3S

4D 5D

6D.

 

2C is bad only when you find a misfit and broken hand from partner.

[LH2650]

Does opener know more about responder's hand on the above auction than he does after 1S- 1N (forcing) - 3D - 3S - 4D - 5D - ?? I think not.

[junyi_zhu]

Does opener know more about responder's hand on the above auction than he does after 1S- 1N (forcing) - 3D - 3S - 4D - 5D - ?? I think not.

They are completely different. For the 2C opening, the opener knows that partner doesn't have 3 card spade support, so responder can bid 3S as a false preference.

For the 1S 1N 3D sequence, 3S here should show 3 card support and invitational value,

so responder has to bid 3NT with a lot of semibalanced or balanced hands with some sort of support in diamonds, because if he bids 4D, they may get too high.

[Fluffy]

so u have to open 11 trick 1 suited hands at the 1 level? thats great...and i dont think anyone opens NO 2 suiters with 2C.

Count me on that, depends on the 2 suiter, 5431 can be relaxed to balanced or even 1 suiters, but I wouldn´t open any 5-5+ with 2♣ unless I really was too strong (26 HCP I think :().

[Fluffy]

2C 2D

2S 2N

3D 3S

4D 5D

6D.

mmm lovelly bidding, now try to bid after this ones:

 

2♣-X-pass-4♣

 

 

2♣-pass-2NT-pass

[LH2650]

They are completely different. For the 2C opening, the opener knows that partner doesn't have 3 card spade support, so responder can bid 3S as a false preference.

For the 1S 1N 3D sequence, 3S here should show 3 card support and invitational value,

so responder has to bid 3NT with a lot of semibalanced or balanced hands with some sort of support in diamonds,  because if he bids 4D, they may get too high.

I consider 3S over partner's 3D on this hand as automatic as I do bidding 2S over partner's 2D rebid. If I had a limit raise, I would bid 4S over 3D. Partner may have invented a jump shift with 6 spades. If you rebid 3N, he has a guess.

[han]

I voted for 2C, but I think this is very close.

 

If partner has a positive response over 1S then the auction is more smooth if I opened 1S.

 

But after I open 2C, my partner will certainly not pass 2S or 3D, that is rediculous.

[goodwintr]

There are many good arguments for opening 2C on S-AQJxx H-AJ10 D-AKQxx C--, but fear of being dropped in 1S isn't one of them. There is virtually NO chance that this will happen, as you will discover if you generate a bunch of deals with this hand fixed and everything else random. Somebody "always" finds a bid.

 

Churchill (in "Churchill Natural Bidding Style At Contract Bridge") told about a hand he played with Roth in 1941. Roth held S-- H-AKQJx D-AQ10 C-KQ109x, and out of deference to Churchill (who played no strong forcing opening bid) opened one heart. It went P - P - P, and Roth immediately berated Church for not keeping the bidding open when he, Roth, had a game in hand. Church's hand was 109xx xx xxxx xxx, and a forcing defense held declarer to five trump tricks, one club, and one diamond -- making one heart on the nose! The deal actually belonged to the opponents in two spades. (Church said he got no thanks at the for keeping the side low, however. . . .)

 

How did Churchill utilize the 2C opening bid, then? The answer is that he didn't open 2C at all -- or any other two-bid (except 2NT), for that matter. I doubt if THAT part of the style would attract many adherents today!

 

TLGoodwin

[pclayton]

There are many good arguments for opening 2C on  S-AQJxx  H-AJ10  D-AKQxx  C--, but fear of being dropped in 1S isn't one of them. There is virtually NO chance that this will happen, as you will discover if you generate a bunch of deals with this hand fixed and everything else random. Somebody "always" finds a bid.

 

Churchill (in "Churchill Natural Bidding Style At Contract Bridge") told about a hand he played with Roth in 1941. Roth held  S--  H-AKQJx  D-AQ10  C-KQ109x, and out of deference to Churchill (who played no strong forcing opening bid) opened one heart. It went P - P - P, and Roth immediately berated Church for not keeping the bidding open when he, Roth, had a game in hand. Church's hand was 109xx  xx  xxxx  xxx, and a forcing defense held declarer to five trump tricks, one club, and one diamond -- making one heart on the nose! The deal actually belonged to the opponents in two spades. (Church said he got no thanks at the for keeping the side low, however. . . .)

 

How did Churchill utilize the 2C opening bid, then? The answer is that he didn't open 2C at all -- or any other two-bid (except 2NT), for that matter. I doubt if THAT part of the style would attract many adherents today!

 

TLGoodwin

Church's hand was 109xx xx xxxx xxx, and a forcing defense held declarer to five trump tricks, one club, and one diamond -- making one heart on the nose!

 

_____________________________

 

Fortunately Churchill's hand (opposite the subject hand) wasn't: xxx, xx, 109xx, xxx; where 5♦ is just about frigid and 4♠ is excellent. Passing out 1♠ should be a BIG concern on this hand.

[goodwintr]

All I will say is, try the simulation I suggested above. Fix one hand at S-AQJxx H-AJ10 D-AKQxx C--, and let the generator deal the other three hands at random. The claim is simply that it will be very rare indeed that everybody else will pass over a 1S opening bid.

 

[This is not to say I believe you should open 1S -- only that the fear that it will go 1S - P - P - P is largely unwarranted. As I suggested before, there are other more cogent arguments for opening 2C.]

 

 

 

TLGoodwin

[junyi_zhu]

All I will say is, try the simulation I suggested above. Fix one hand at S-AQJxx H-AJ10 D-AKQxx C--, and let the generator deal the other three hands at random. The claim is simply that it will be very rare indeed that everybody else will pass over a 1S opening bid.

 

[This is not to say I believe you should open 1S -- only that the fear that it will go 1S - P - P - P is largely unwarranted. As I suggested before, there are other more cogent arguments for opening 2C.]

 

 

 

TLGoodwin

The problem is that once your partner holds some support in either S or D, and about 4-5 HCP, you may get passed out and nobody would save you if your opps don't balance as insanely as a lot of self claimed "good players" do in this world. So even if it can be a small portion to be passed out, it still costs a lot comparing with 2C guys.

[junyi_zhu]

They are completely different. For the 2C opening, the opener knows that partner doesn't have 3 card spade support, so responder can bid 3S as a false preference.

For the 1S 1N 3D sequence, 3S here should show 3 card support and invitational value,

so responder has to bid 3NT with a lot of semibalanced or balanced hands with some sort of support in diamonds,  because if he bids 4D, they may get too high.

I consider 3S over partner's 3D on this hand as automatic as I do bidding 2S over partner's 2D rebid. If I had a limit raise, I would bid 4S over 3D. Partner may have invented a jump shift with 6 spades. If you rebid 3N, he has a guess.

Even if you play 3S to show only two spades, you still should bid 3NT here, slam is super remote, and your partner can hardly bid 3NT which can be your best game, because you hold a lot of values in H and C. You wait only when you don't know the direction of the bidding, here you really have a clear 3NT bid. It's not the same as the 2C auction,

because your partner has shown a strong opening, it's safe for you to explore minor suit slam possibility or 6NT, that's the reason why you want to bid 3S here.

[junyi_zhu]

2C 2D

2S 2N

3D 3S

4D 5D

6D.

mmm lovelly bidding, now try to bid after this ones:

 

2♣-X-pass-4♣

 

 

2♣-pass-2NT-pass

If the double is for penalty, and 4C is natural, you can make a forcing pass here to show either penalty oriented hands or two suiters. Over partner's possible double, you can bid 4D to clearify your hand type. It's not mission impossible to bid two suiters at high level, as long as you have the right gadget and good partnership agreements.

If the 2NT is natural, you have really an easy 3S rebid and plan to bid 4D over a possible 3NT. For strong two suiters, 4C can't hurt it. 4H or 4S can, but you are not in

a good shape in that case even if you open 1S.

The only exception to open 1 level with stronger hands are three suiters. or 5-4-3-1 shape, you really don't have a good way to show them if you open 2C. In a lot of case, you'd distort your hand one way or another if you open 2C. For example:

with Sx HAKx DAKQxx CAQxx, it's awful to open 2C, because you have to rebid 3D

which takes up a lot of bidding space and you'd have no sensitive way to bid it again.

The same is true for Sx HAKxx DAKQx CAQxx, I prefer 1D opening to 2C then 2NT or 2H both distort the nature of this hand much.

[LH2650]

Let's change responder's hand a little bit. Instead of Kx in spades, make it two small. If you think that this would require a first or second negative at some point, change the club Q to the K. Now I would propose 1S - 1N - 3D - 3N...... Partner should avoid what is now a very poor 6D. Can the responder to the 2C bidder afford to make the same change, or does this hand result in the same auction that previously got to 6D?

 

Responding to Fluffy's comment, my Walsh system notes indicate that 2C - 2N is not a possible auction. All it does is preempt partner. (This is before 2H negative and 2N as a replacement for a 2H positive became popular.)

[junyi_zhu]

Let's change responder's hand a little bit. Instead of Kx in spades, make it two small. If you think that this would require a first or second negative at some point, change the club Q to the K. Now I would propose 1S - 1N - 3D - 3N...... Partner should avoid what is now a very poor 6D. Can the responder to the 2C bidder afford to make the same change, or does this hand result in the same auction that previously got to 6D?

 

Responding to Fluffy's comment, my Walsh system notes indicate that 2C - 2N is not a possible auction. All it does is preempt partner. (This is before 2H negative and 2N as a replacement for a 2H positive became popular.)

As I said, 1S 1N 3D 3S, 3S by reponder is natural and shows 3 spades.

Otherwise, you really have no way to distiguish about 4-5 HCP with 3 spades support

hand and balanced invitational hands with 3 spades playing 2/1 gameforcing.

So you actually can't bid 3S to show this hand at all.

However, for 2/1 GF,

2C 2D

2S 2N

3D 3S

should show honor doubleton support, so it's really quite easy for declarer

to find a 6D bid. Change the hand to spade low doubleton, what's the point

to bid 3S here, spade king is the only sure cover card for responder, without sp K,

his QJ riched hand would only justify a 3NT bid.

for 2C opening, the big advantage is that 2NT really denies spade support

and 1S 1NT can't afford doing so. For this kind of two suiters, you really

have a much easier time than 1S opening, because you may eventually get

passed out and nobody would save you or even if partner bids 1NT, your hand is still too strong for 3D; If it goes like 2C 2D 2S, it would be just like a traditional strong two opening in spades and you would be at a much firmer ground than your 1S opening, but not distributional enough to pull partner's possible 3NT.

So which opening is more informative and

easier to develop?

[chicken]

these hands are the reason why many players adopt verdi-openings with all their disadvantages.

 

"modified verdi" opens the hand 3!h or 3!c which is a X-fer bid, depending if u treat it as a semi/ or a gameforce.

[luke warm]

1♠

[flytoox]

1♠

Jimmy, if you consider 1s, then why not 1D? Pd is likely to pass 1S, but less likely to pass 1D.

 

For pd, 1S is very preemtive here, so I would rather go with 2C. This really didnt take much space in the 1st round but will save a lot space in later round.