Flame Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 [hv=s=saqj75haj10dakq53c]133|100|[/hv]very simple question, no other options here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Much as I dislike opening strong 2 suiters with 2C opening this hand with 1S is too much for me.2C for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 20 years ago, this would be a unanimous vote for 2♣. Now, strong 2 suiters like to be opened 1♠. Pard is expected to keep the bidding open with as much as a King. With this pattern, I can't see anything bad that can happen if I open 2♣. I have easy rebids after 2♦, and pard's expected 2nd negative after I bid 2♠. There are SOME patterns that are a bear to bid after a 2♣ opener, but this isn't one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 2C, absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 2c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'm a 2♣ opener. This hand was from an Abalucy tourney, 4th seat, red vul. Of those who got the chance to open this and who weren't playing a strong club, 8 chose 2♣, 4 chose 1♠. What is worring is that only 5 of the 8 2♣ openers reached game. With a 2-1-4-6 shape, 2 passed openers 2♠ rebid and 1 passed opener's third bid of 3♦! Based on this, maybe a 1♠ opener is better :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'm a 2♣ opener. This hand was from an Abalucy tourney, 4th seat, red vul. Of those who got the chance to open this and who weren't playing a strong club, 8 chose 2♣, 4 chose 1♠. What is worring is that only 5 of the 8 2♣ openers reached game. With a 2-1-4-6 shape, 2 passed openers 2♠ rebid and 1 passed opener's third bid of 3♦! Based on this, maybe a 1♠ opener is better :P Am I dinosaur here? 2C opening usually forced to 3 of majors or 4 of minors (and new suit is usually (always?) forcing). In the sequense, 2♣-2♦-2♠-?-3♦, responder can't pass 2S or 3D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'm a 2♣ opener. This hand was from an Abalucy tourney, 4th seat, red vul. Of those who got the chance to open this and who weren't playing a strong club, 8 chose 2♣, 4 chose 1♠. What is worring is that only 5 of the 8 2♣ openers reached game. With a 2-1-4-6 shape, 2 passed openers 2♠ rebid and 1 passed opener's third bid of 3♦! Based on this, maybe a 1♠ opener is better :P What happened to the pairs where 1♠ was opened? Eric (who is a 2♣ opener) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daswallow Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Maybe I am wrong, but I open this 1♠. If pard responds we will be better placed in the auction, and if not hopefully those nice opps will balance in for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I opened it a strong club, and rebid 2S (forcing to game). WIth some interference (opps bid hearts to the 3 level) we got to 5D, and I had a go at my partner for not bidding 6 with 4 trumps and a singleton in their suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 3♦... GF with 5+♠ and 5+m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Give me the ♥K and it will still be a 1♠ opening, good luck to 2♣ bidders after opps bid 5♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 5C?? Have you been seeing too many horror movies? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 im sure im in a clear minority, but thats ok im used to it :) i will take my chances with 1S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 If you are going to open this hand with 1♠ (and it may be right to), then there is surely no longer any need to use 2♣ as a strong opening. But I bet none of those who have voted for 1♠ are using eg a weak 2 in ♣. Why not? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 If you are going to open this hand with 1♠ (and it may be right to), then there is surely no longer any need to use 2♣ as a strong opening. But I bet none of those who have voted for 1♠ are using eg a weak 2 in ♣. Why not? Eric 2♣ opening is good for the hands that don´t have a good rebid: very strong balanced, and strong one siters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 because sometimes i am dealt 24 balanced. sometimes im dealt 11 tricks in my own hand. there is no way you can play a system with no strong bid. If you do this, all opening 1 bids must be 1 round forces, which means a response by partner no longer shows any values. Now it is impossible to ever bid with any precision. Is a jumpshift forcing? opener could have a huge hand. But if it is, then with 19 you can no longer jump shift since partner could have nothing. Similarly, you can no longer show various NT ranges after 20-21. A strong bid is a cornerstone of every popular system, and it is impossible to have constructive auctions without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 because sometimes i am dealt 24 balanced. sometimes im dealt 11 tricks in my own hand. there is no way you can play a system with no strong bid. If you do this, all opening 1 bids must be 1 round forces Wrong. If I believe I am gaining from using 2♣ as weak, then I'll accept the occasional bad result when I'm dealt a 24 count. Responding on 2 counts will lead to many more bad results than passing 2 counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 One must draw a line somewhere. One can't just open a virtual slam-in-hand at the 1-level just because the hand is two-suited. And the lighter you open, the lower the line should be (I personally put it around 20-21 hcp). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 because sometimes i am dealt 24 balanced. sometimes im dealt 11 tricks in my own hand. there is no way you can play a system with no strong bid. If you do this, all opening 1 bids must be 1 round forces Wrong. If I believe I am gaining from using 2♣ as weak, then I'll accept the occasional bad result when I'm dealt a 24 count. Responding on 2 counts will lead to many more bad results than passing 2 counts. Well, if someone can find a single convention card of the teams playing in Istanbul that doesn't have a strong forcing opening, then I'll agree. A weak 2♣ opening has been around for at least 25 years, but the idea has been pretty much discarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 because sometimes i am dealt 24 balanced. sometimes im dealt 11 tricks in my own hand. there is no way you can play a system with no strong bid. If you do this, all opening 1 bids must be 1 round forces Wrong. If I believe I am gaining from using 2♣ as weak, then I'll accept the occasional bad result when I'm dealt a 24 count. Responding on 2 counts will lead to many more bad results than passing 2 counts. Well, if someone can find a single convention card of the teams playing in Istanbul that doesn't have a strong forcing opening, then I'll agree. A weak 2♣ opening has been around for at least 25 years, but the idea has been pretty much discarded. Yes, but I am sure that most of those playing in Istanbul (if not playing a strong ♣) will open the given hand 2♣. There really does come a point when if a reasonably low level opening bid becomes too rare then you are almost certainly better off not opening it, but instead using it in some other way. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 One must draw a line somewhere. One can't just open a virtual slam-in-hand at the 1-level just because the hand is two-suited. And the lighter you open, the lower the line should be (I personally put it around 20-21 hcp). EHAA manages quite well without a strong artifical and forcing openingdecent system, at that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 EHAA is a lot of fun to play, but I'd rank it pretty low in its effectiveness to bid slams with hands like the one given. I can't think of another well-known system that doesnt have a strong forcing opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 A common fallacy is the frequency of a convention is all important. Certainly a weak 2C would be more frequent than 2C showing a strong hand. Yet that leaves you with no possible bid for hands that would normally be opened a strong 2C. You say the requirements for a response to an unlimited 1 bid will not change, this will lead to ridiculous results when you pick up the rare or semi-rare 22+ balanced or 10+ trick hands where you open a 1 bid and miss game. Even if partner finds a response you will not have a way to catch up. You sacrifice all this for the "advantages of a weak 2C bid." I will not even argue how negligible these advantages are compared to the sacrifice, it should be obvious. And I know many experts who would not open the hand posted at the beginning of this thread with 2C. The fact that they do not draw the line at this hand does not mean the line should never be drawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Fourrière Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 I open 2♣, but I would be much less afraid of an overcall if 2♣ contained one weak hypothesis, thereby preventing an overcall on less than 10 HCP. If I should start with a one-bid, 1♦ allows one of the other players to introduce his hearts, so maybe it is also a reasonable option (?). With a six-card weak two in a minor, systemically opening at the three level is right in my opinion. With a five-card weak two, you preempt your partner or give extra information to the opponents if it is their hand. Nunes-Fantoni don't have a strong opening. Their two-bids are 10-13 HCP and their one-bids start at 14 HCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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