Debate in T-Walsh

[Phil]

A few partners and I are looking into playing transfers to 1♣ and we are already stuck on one basic sequence.

 

Do you prefer

 

1♣* - 1♦**

1♥

 

to show

 

a) A weak NT (and a 1N rebid is 18-19)

b) at least three hearts (and a 1N rebid is 12-14)

 

* - could be short

** - hearts

[straube]

I haven't played this, but I think I'd prefer a 1N rebid to be 18-19.

 

Almost thinking that 1C-1D, 1S should show an unbalanced hand. That leaves 1C-1D, 1H-1S as natural and forcing.

 

Curious what others come up with.

[MickyB]

Of the two options, I prefer complete = weak NT.

 

1. 1C:1R, 1M is harder to penalise than 1C:1R, 1NT
   
2. No more decisions about whether to pull 1NT to 2M on a five-card suit
   
3. Occasionally you'll be allowed to score +80
   
4. You can find 4-4 spade fits on weak hands after 1C:1D, 1H
   
5. Much better auctions when opener is strong balanced
   
6. 2NT rebid is free for 6C3M [admittedly playing 1C:1D, 1H as three cards will solve this hand too]
   

 

I wouldn't play 1C:1R, 1NT as narrower than a 1NT opening. If you don't want to open flat 11s then play a 2.5 point range [good 14-16 or 15-bad 17] and give up your way of inviting in NT without a four-card major.

[Fluffy]

I play 1♣-1♦-1♠ as 4 cards in spades forcing, but could be 4234 12-14.

 

You have so much space after this start that I doubt you will find difficulties with anything you try. I play 1♥ = 3 card support, but that´s just because its the way the taught me and have been playing it for many years without thinking about alternatives.

 

We are very (too much) solid responding 1♣, but I supose that the lighter you respond the better it will be to be able to stay low.

[Flameous]

I play 10-13NT, 1♣ being 14-19 bal or nat (without diamonds).

 

I accept the transfer with all balanced 14-16 and any unbalanced hand with 3M and less than GF. This means that acceptance is pretty much forcing but I think it should be or you are wasting a lot of good sequences.

 

I also start GF major hands with transfer to hearts and use 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ as natural or (any) GF. Really cheap and good GF sequence that comes up quite often.

 

 

So I wouldn't pick either one of those but sort of a mix :unsure:

 

Of course this route requires more agreements on continuations.

[paulg]

Of the two options, I prefer complete = weak NT.

 

1. 1C:1R, 1M is harder to penalise than 1C:1R, 1NT
2. No more decisions about whether to pull 1NT to 2M on a five-card suit
3. Occasionally you'll be allowed to score +80
4. You can find 4-4 spade fits on weak hands after 1C:1D, 1H
5. Much better auctions when opener is strong balanced
6. 2NT rebid is free for 6C3M [admittedly playing 1C:1D, 1H as three cards will solve this hand too]

I wouldn't play 1C:1R, 1NT as narrower than a 1NT opening. If you don't want to open flat 11s then play a 2.5 point range [good 14-16 or 15-bad 17] and give up your way of inviting in NT without a four-card major.

This is essentially what I play too. A lot of our system came from Fallenius-Welland and then Fallenius-Fredin (PDF) - worth a read if you are looking for ideas.

[petterb]

1♣-1♦-1♥ = 11-13 BAL 2-3♥ OR 5+♣ 3♥ UNBAL

1♣-1♦-1N = 17-19 BAL

 

This is how transfer responses after 1♣ is usually played in Sweden.

[mich-b]

1♣-1♦-1♥ = 11-13 BAL 2-3♥ OR 5+♣ 3♥ UNBAL

1♣-1♦-1N = 17-19 BAL

 

This is how transfer responses after 1♣ is usually played in Sweden.

 

Playing this style is the 1♥ rebid forcing?

If opener has the UNBAL type , can he have extras? Does a 2♣ rebid deny 3♥s?

[kgr]

I play:

1♥=3c♥ forcing

2♥=4c♥ 12-14

1NT=12-14

[petterb]

Playing this style is the 1♥ rebid forcing?

If opener has the UNBAL type , can he have extras? Does a 2♣ rebid deny 3♥s?

1♥ is always a minimum hand, not forcing.

 

With weak 3-card support and strong 6+ ♣-suit, I'd rebid 2♣. So the answer to your question is; no, 2♣ does not deny 3♥.

[wank]

i prefer completing to show the weak NT which lets you respond 1M on pony without getting too high

 

of course you then need to decide what you do with 5431 shapes with 3 card support or 63s. in standard bidding you would normally support to the 2-level. here you could complete but then you lose definition on the completion or you could jump complete and lose the promise of the 4th trump.

[phil_20686]

I prefer completing to show the weak NT. I would sometimes complete on other hands, like 2245, where i just didnt fancy a 2c rebid.

 

Having 1c-1d-1N as 18-19 without 4 hearts is a surprisingly big gain surprisingly often, especially as you (should be) playing that you open 1d as 5+ and so one club is commonly two or three cards, thus partner should be prepared to transfer into a major on junk when short in clubs. Knowing you are not going to be playing 2N improves this a lot.

 

Finally, playing this way improves the auctions like 1d-1M-2N as now you can play this as showing a hand that is 36 with extras. Of course, this means with 18-19 balanced you cannot open 1d even when you have five diamonds, but that is a small loss imo.

 

There is some discussion about what one should do with 43(15) hands, if you bid a spade over a diamond here for me it is NF, as 2S would be GF, but passing is extremely rare. My own style is just to bid 2H on any hand where you would raise hearts in standard, but never a weak nt with three card support. Another style is just to complete with 3 card support, in an unbalanced hand, and bid 2h if partner bids a NT. That also has much to recommend it.

 

One important feature is to play checkback after all completed transfers, i like 3-way (2c/d/nt). This means that 1c-1d-1h-1s should show no interest in came and 44 in the majors from responder. Asking opener to choose the best partscore.

[mgoetze]

I recommend

 

1♣-1♦-1♥ = (a) 11-13 balanced, 2-3 hearts OR (b) 11-15 unbalanced, exactly 3 hearts

1♣-1♦-1NT = 17-19 balanced, 2-3 hearts

 

One important feature is to play checkback after all completed transfers, i like 3-way (2c/d/nt). This means that 1c-1d-1h-1s should show no interest in came and 44 in the majors from responder. Asking opener to choose the best partscore.

 

This has been improved upon previously in these forums

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ = 0-3 spades weak, or any invite

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT/2♣-pass = weak

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT/2♣-anybid = invitational

1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT = 4 spades, non-forcing

 

Learned this from jlall.

[Finch]

The style I like is

 

-Complete = something resembling a weak NT, or unbalanced with 3-card support less than a reverse (i.e. non-forcing)

- 1NT = good 17- bad 20. I really like putting some 20s into the 1C opening, it stops you having to play in 2NT opposite nothing and the range is no wider than an opening 1NT (good 14- bad 17). If I've got a 20-count, there's no 5-card suit.

 

"something like" a weak NT means I would complete on, say, Kxx K QJxx K109xx, although I would rebid 2C on Axx x Jxxx KQJ10x

 

As others have said, this allows responder to bid on nothing in response to 1C, and allows 1C - 1red - 2M to promise 4-card support, which is quite handy for game bidding.

 

For continuations after 1C-1D-1H you can play 1S as artificial, or you can play 1S as natural, non-forcing. Although it looks obvious to play 1S as a relay, you actually gain so many sequences it's hard to think of meanings for them all, and so far we've stuck with it as natural and weak.

[phil_20686]

For continuations after 1C-1D-1H you can play 1S as artificial, or you can play 1S as natural, non-forcing. Although it looks obvious to play 1S as a relay, you actually gain so many sequences it's hard to think of meanings for them all, and so far we've stuck with it as natural and weak.

 

I found this too, added to which the chance to always find a 4-4 major fit if you hold one at MP is a huge gain over most people. Its the only concession that I make to MP strategy in the system, cause its a big gain and it has little cost. I already have almost too many checkback sequences available.

 

Also worth discussion is whether you play a full round of transfers or stop at 1N. Some people like to be able to bid NT from either side, others (like me) prefer to do transfers up to 2c.

 

I play after 1c

 

1d/h=transfer to a major

1s= transfer to NT, basically natural except GF hands with 4M5+diamonds, and invitational NT hands.

1N=transfer to clubs, basically any strength 5+Hcp, partner is expected to bounce to 3c with 12-14and 4 card support, else complete. bidding a major immediately is natural 5-4 etc, can contain a 4cM if GF

2c = transfer to diamonds, GF, denies a 4cM

2d/h/s = wjs, but 2d tends to be much weaker as cannot get into diamonds with 3361 shape and junk.

2N = both minors inv+

3c/d = invitational with 6 carder (give up the preemptive raise since can transfer to clubs and get a bounce)

3M= natural, pre

 

 

[olien]

I definitely prefer that completing shows the weak NT. The obvious gains being that you re-bid 1NT when the field is re-bidding 2NT which may let you play 1NT= and everybody else is in 2NT-1. It also frees up the 2NT re-bid to mean whatever you want it to mean. I like it to show a GF single suiter with 6+♣, may have 3-card support, and then 3♣ asks with something like the following:

 

3♦ no 3-card support (now 3M shows stopper)

3♥ 6-3 with ♦ shortness

3♠ 6-3 with oM shortness

3NT 6-3-2-2 with 3-card support

 

Responder may also bid 3♦ over 2NT to initially probe for stoppers, but may be a move towards slam agreeing ♣. 3M is natural.

 

The rest of the structure I like is as follows:

1♠ transfer to NT, may include GF ♣ hands.

1NT natural invite (keeps you low when opener is declining)

2♣ weak or GF with ♦

2♦ natural invite

2♥ 4-9 5♠ 4/5♥

2♠ invitational with ♣ support

2NT both minors <INV

3♣ 7-9 HCP 6+♣

3♦/M weak

[fromageGB]

Years ago when I first started playing Twalsh I completed the transfer with 3 cards exactly, and with 2 rebid NT - with no indication of strength. Then I switched to completing the transfer with 2 or 3 and a weak NT, and bidding 1NT rebid with 2 or 3 and 17/18 (our 1NT open is 15/16) and much prefer this.

 

After completing the transfer we play responder passes with a 5 card suit and a less than invitational hand, and even if there is a 5-2 fit it scores better than 1NT. Of course, responder having passed (showing 5), when 4th seat comes in with a 2m, 2M from opener now shows 3.

 

After opener's rebid of NT, which shows strength but could be 2 or 3, we play transfers from responder to show 5. This could be weak, but may not be, and opener bids 2M with 3 card support, or 2NT without. You have the values for 2NT, or course.

 

On other points raised in this thread, we play :

 

1♣ 1♦ 1♠ as 4 spades in a hand that is 4xx6. It denies a 4315, as that hand rebids 1♥, because if responder has 4 spades he will bid them. He cannot be a weak 45xx shape. However, a 4306 opener will convert 2♣ to 2♥ at MPs.

 

1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ is the sequence where responder shows a less than invitational hand with 4-4 in the majors. (When responder is invitational with 4-4 (or just one 4 card major) we start with a transfer to 1NT then 2♣ stayman.) However, the mgoetze/jlall idea of reversing the 1♠/1NT responder rebids is a good one.

 

1♣ 1NT is for us a weak 5-4 in the majors hand, opener bidding a 4 card major if he has one, else 2C, whereupon responder transfers to the 5 card major.

 

Incidentally, we play that 1♣ guarantees at least 2 cards in each major. If you don't do this, many sequences would be suspect (eg 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ pass, for example).

[Gerben42]

I play that completing shows 3-card support and is 1-round forcing. With a weak NT we complete to... 1NT.

[Finch]

By the way, it wasn't part of the original question but people have been commenting on uses for 1C-1red-2NT. If you only use it for one meaning you are missing out on a lot of fun.

 

We play

 

1♣ - 1♦ - 2NT as one of

- game forcing with clubs (may have 3 hearts)

- 18-19 balanced with 4 hearts

- void splinter in diamonds or spades

- 18-20 (approx) 2=4=2=5

- 3-7 specifically semi-FG with hearts and clubs

- 1=5=1=6 raise to game expecting to make it (1C-1D-4H = 1516 minimum)

 

1♣-1♦-2♠ as one of

- game forcing with spades and clubs (and you have to be very, very strong to game force so this is rare as no 2C opening)

- spade mini-splinter

- 3-6 invitational

 

They all fit in!

[glen]

...

1♣ - 1♦ - 2NT as one of

- game forcing with clubs (may have 3 hearts)

- 18-19 balanced with 4 hearts

- void splinter in diamonds or spades

- 18-20 (approx) 2=4=2=5

- 3-7 specifically semi-FG with hearts and clubs

- 1=5=1=6 ...

Kokish had room for the 1=4=1=7

[han]

I thought that weak notrump was better. In the Netherlands most play that completing shows 3, and I started playing this with my regular partner because he prefered it that way. Now I don't know what's better, I'm quite happy with this style. We play completion as almost forcing, and all other bids virtually deny 3-card support. This has some nice consequences, for example, it makes reverse auctions simpler.

 

After the completion we play that 2C is an invitational relay, after which we show strength and shape. I'm happy with that as well.

 

So while I still appreciate the reasons for playing that completion shows a weak notrump, my experiences are such that I am no longer convinced that that is better.

[gnasher]

I play that completing shows three and 1NT shows a weak notrump. My experience of the benefits has been similar to Han's.

 

We "solve" the problem of how to deal with 18-19 balanced by opening it 2♦.

[MickyB]

In the context of opening all balanced hands 1♣, I'm fairly sure completing should show any weak NT, just on frequency grounds. If you open 1♦ on balanced hands with 4♦ then alternative methods may be better.

[Zelandakh]

I have been thinking about a completely different set of responses to Transfer Walsh that I think may have certain advantages. The key to this idea is to use completion of the transfer to deny a fit:-

 

eg

1♣ - 1♦ (hearts)

========

1♥ = 0-2 hearts

1♠ = 3 hearts, 4 spades

1NT = 3 hearts, weak NT

2♣ = 3 hearts, < 4 spades, min with clubs

2♦ = 3 hearts, extras with clubs

2♥ = 4 hearts, min

2♠ = multi-purpose

2NT = 3 hearts, maxi NT

 

The idea is still only a germ really but I like the idea of staying low with a misfit and showing the fit and partial fit hands immediately. It also makes it somewhat safer to respond with a long major suit and a super-weak hand - with support our hand becomes better, without we can stop in 1M.

[gwnn]

I prefer it to be a waiting bid, 1-3 hearts, usually a weak NT but could also be one of those "problem hands", e.g. 3145 15 count over 1♣-1♦.