bd71 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=skq5hq3d6ckjt7532&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2n(20-21)p]133|200[/hv] IMPs. Mainstream 2/1 agreements, but NOT including Puppet. Is there science to help you discover if you have two quick heart losers? What is your bid? Alternatively, if Puppet is on, what is the science if partner admits to holding (a) 5 spades, or (b) 4 spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 KISS 3c then 4c as a slam try. option two is just bid 6nt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 You could easily be missing two aces, or an ace and two kings. Odds are there's duplication in diamonds too. All of those suggest that perhaps slam has poor chances. Still, I like mike's 3♣, then 4♣. Partner's reaction to that should clarify things a lot, and if 3♣ is Puppet Stayment, you'll find your spade fit, if it's there. The magic hand is something like [hv=pc=n&n=saj432hak2dq2caq2]133|100[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar13 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 KISS 3c then 4c as a slam try. option two is just bid 6nt. Love your first option, option two not so much. Too often 6NT will be down when 6♣ (or 6♠!) makes. I might shoot 6NT at match points if swinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 With my regular partners I'd transfer to ♣ and figure out if we're missing 2 Aces. Without, I'd just Gerber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Statistically this is a 6 or 7 hand (6 losers opposite an average of 6 cover cards). Transfer to clubs and later RKCB. Lacking the methods just bid 6C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=skq5hq3d6ckjt7532&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2n(20-21)p]133|200[/hv] Is there science to help you discover if you have two quick heart losers? No science that I know of for determining 2 quick losers in a side suit after slam exploration in a minor and you find out you have 4 of the 5 key cards combined.[ For example there is no 5-of-trump equivalent as in Major suit slam exploration ] Opener may be:A J xJ x x xA K Q xA Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Is there science to help you discover if you have two quick heart losers?If available, you could transfer to ♥, then ask for keycards in ♥, and if the response showing 3 is 5♣, pass it. If partner shows 4+ keys, bid 6♣ and/or 6NT, depending what 6♣ means and whether partner passes it. If the response showing 3 keys isn't 5♣, this probably won't work B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 If you have a way to show a slammish minor one-suiter at the 4-level (perhaps 3C-then-4C, perhaps a 3S transfer, etc.), then of course there is science to identify two heart losers: it is called cuebidding. After the 4C bid, partner bids 4D, you bid 4S if you show 2nd round controls freely or 5C if you don't, partner will know whether there is a hole in hearts and sign off or keep exploring accordingly. Two fast heart losers is sufficiently remote that, absent fancy agreements, a garden variety ace-ask is the practical approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich-b Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 With my regular partners I'd transfer to ♣ and figure out if we're missing 2 Aces. Without, I'd just Gerber. Since you hold the ♣K , what's the difference? Why can't you Gerber anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 +1 to 3C then 4C. But I like 3S forces 3N, and 4C/4D shows slammish in C/D (or D/C, whichever you decide). This also frees up a direct 3N for some artificiality, which I know you love :P, as now you can pass the forced 3N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 What is all this Gerber over 2NT? Why can't we just bid 4♣ to set trumps and initiate cue bidding? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 What is all this Gerber over 2NT? Why can't we just bid 4♣ to set trumps and initiate cue bidding? Doggone radical young whippersnappers think they know everything. 4♣ has to be Gerber because, well, because Johnny Gerber said so! So there! <splutter, splutter> :P :P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiaolongnu Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I second 3♣ rebid 4♣. I also foresee an impossible bid sequence. What does 3♠ mean in this sequence. It would be best in the agreement that it means NOTHING, an impossible bid. Partner would probably bid 3NT, then bid 4♣. Now (a reliable) partner would think why did you insert a random looking bid in the middle and realize that this is real clubs instead of aces. Which of the two methods to use depends on your exact agreements. The point is to choose the line that you do not have an agreement with and which is illogical to pass prematurely. Continue with cue bids. Of course, this really depends on whether you know your partner well enough. My partner and I are deep fans of impossible bids, we both like it naturally, we have an affinity with it, and we love to use it for those none of the above situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I second 3♣ rebid 4♣. I also foresee an impossible bid sequence. What does 3♠ mean in this sequence. It would be best in the agreement that it means NOTHING, an impossible bid.If playing regular Stayman then 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♠ typically shows 4 spades and 5+ hearts (Smolen) while 2NT - 3♣; 3♥ - 3♠ agrees hearts. Thus it is not an impossible bid. I like to play 2NT - 3♠ as showing clubs (6+ or 5-5 minors) and 2NT - 4♣ as showing diamonds. This means that Opener is allowed to show club support over 3♠ and also keeps 2NT - 3NT natural (no beers on me!) If playing Puppet and choosing to start with 3♣, then after a 3♠ response I would have a choice between 4♣ (natural) and 4♥ (slam try in spades). Neither of these really helps here so starting out with 3♠ seems best. Of course if Opener can start with a strong club things get alot simpler. For my methods it would start 1♣ - 1♠; 1NT - 2♦ where we have shown a 1-suited hand with clubs and 9+. Opener can now relay further with 2♥, set clubs and start a cue auction with 3♣, or (unlikely) just ask for key cards without any further investigation by bidding 4♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I also foresee an impossible bid sequence. What does 3♠ mean in this sequence. It would be best in the agreement that it means NOTHING, an impossible bid.3♠ can be used to show 5 ♠ and 4 ♥; such a hand may be hard to deal with otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 3♠ can be used to show 5 ♠ and 4 ♥; such a hand may be hard to deal with otherwise. "Better" (if you don't mind the memory strain) is to use 3N for that hand and 3S relays to 3N to play or to make a 1-or-2-minor slam try. But the 5S/4H hand is a nonissue for OP in a non-puppet context, as he can use Smolen after 3C-3D. [unless I'm mistaken, and the sequence you're talking about is 2N-3C; 3S. The one I'm talking about is 2N-3S.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Put me into the blast 6♣ camp On this hand I think that the benefits of a quick, uninformative auction more than outweigh delicate slam explorations. Even if we occasionally bid to a bad slam, the opponents still need to set us which is a lot harder if I just punt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcohio Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 "Better" (if you don't mind the memory strain) is to use 3N for that hand and 3S relays to 3N to play or to make a 1-or-2-minor slam try. This is what I use with my partner and we love it. 2N-3N shows a 5S4H hand with game values, it is then openers choice to pass or correct to a major. 2NT-3S forces opener to rebid 3NT. Responder either passes or bids the following: 4C: slam try in clubs, opener can bid 4N/5c to sign-off otherwise answers RKC for clubs4D: slam try in diamonds, as above4H: 5/5+ minors, shortness in hearts. Opener can bid 4N/5m to sign off, otherwise answers 6-keycard blackwood for both minors4S: 5/5+ minors, shortness in spades, as above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 This is what I use with my partner and we love it. 2N-3N shows a 5S4H hand with game values, it is then openers choice to pass or correct to a major. 2NT-3S forces opener to rebid 3NT. Responder either passes or bids the following: 4C: slam try in clubs, opener can bid 4N/5c to sign-off otherwise answers RKC for clubs4D: slam try in diamonds, as above4H: 5/5+ minors, shortness in hearts. Opener can bid 4N/5m to sign off, otherwise answers 6-keycard blackwood for both minors4S: 5/5+ minors, shortness in spades, as above Is it slightly better to switch the meanings of 4m to right side the contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 It's IMPs so any making slam is good and the difference between making and not making may swing the match. Lacking much in the way of agreements I'd just bid 6♣. Right siding doesn't seem to be much of an issue with my hand although if it comes down to a squeeze running ♣ I'd prefer PD's hand be hidden. Anyhow..give the OP constraints..6♣ .. neilkaz .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 This is what I use with my partner and we love it. 2N-3N shows a 5S4H hand with game values, it is then openers choice to pass or correct to a major. 2NT-3S forces opener to rebid 3NT. Responder either passes or bids the following: 4C: slam try in clubs, opener can bid 4N/5c to sign-off otherwise answers RKC for clubs4D: slam try in diamonds, as above4H: 5/5+ minors, shortness in hearts. Opener can bid 4N/5m to sign off, otherwise answers 6-keycard blackwood for both minors4S: 5/5+ minors, shortness in spades, as above Slightly better still (imho) is to handle the 5♠4♥ hand through 3♣ and the single suited diamond hand with 4♣. That leaves 3♠ promising slam interest and 5 or more clubs so Opener can show support directly. Otherwise, Opener bids 3NT and then:- 4♣ = slam try in clubs4♦ = both minors without void4M = both minors with void in suit bid I think the benefits from 3♠ promising clubs more than makes up for the (admittedly crippling) loss of Gerber! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Why do you care whether we've got two fast heart losers? If we get to slam on an uninformative auction, the chances of them cashing them are well under 50%. Missing two aces is a bigger problem. Suppose that they never lead a ckub, 3rd hand can read the opening lead, and otherwise their suit choices are random.1/4 of the time the player on lead will have both aces.1/4 x 2/3 of the time the other player will have both but one of the ace-suits will be led.1/2 x 1/2 of the time the aces will be divided but they'll manage to cash them. Hence, if I can, I'll check for aces and put partner in 6♣ (6NT at matchpoints). If we can't play clubs from partner's side, I'll put him in 6NT. If I can't check for aces, I'll bid slam anyway. In most partnerships, I wouldn't be able to ask for aces directly, and my method to show clubs would be 4♥. That has the downside of allowing a lead-directing double. Even if I played some other suit as a transfer to clubs, they'd still have inferences about the failure to double it. So, a good hand for Gerber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 A good hand for 2NT - 4H optional RKC for clubs. Hey, that's what I play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Is it slightly better to switch the meanings of 4m to right side the contract?Yes, I believe Fred Hamilton suggested that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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