2H immediate double negative to 2C

[paulhar]

I have played 2D waiting for 35 years now so I really know very little about the immediate 2H negative to the strong 2C opening bid. I have some questions that I would like answered by people who play the immediate 2H negative (my understanding is that the 2H is the only way to stop below game.)

 

1. Is 2C-2H forcing?

 

2. Is 2C-2H-2S forcing?

 

3. Is 2C-2H-3C forcing?

 

4. Is 2C-2H-2S-any-3H forcing?

 

5. When I play 2D waiting, my 2NT rebid shows 22-24 and 3NT shows 25-27. When somebody plays the immediate 2H negative, their 2D is already forcing to game, so do 2C-2D-2NT and 2C-2D-3NT retain the same meaning, or does some fast arrival issues apply? (I believe I know the answer, but some people that play the 2H immediate negative are giving me an answer that really surprises me.)

 

Thank you in advance for your responses!

[mike777]

fwiw I play 2h denies any ace or king but can have unlimited tiny points.

 

 

yes 2c=2h is forcing but does not promise a rebid but you will really strain to bid again on almost anything.

 

To put it another way if you have almost any pts and some support you will end up in game which is what happens most of the time.

[blackshoe]

The way I was taught 2♥ "double negative", it shows about 0-4 HCP — max would be something like four jacks and a queen (yes, that's 5 points). 2♦ shows "at least a couple of queens" (or an ace or king) and is GF. Other responses are positive and GF, 2NT showing hearts. 2♥ does not promise a rebid, but responder will likely bid again over anything except 2NT or a game bid.

 

I prefer, if possible, to keep NT rebids to a two point range, and to not bid 3NT with 25-26, but I've had to bow to pressure from partners who want to play what "everybody" plays, the 22-24 and 25-27 ranges mentioned upthread. That 2♦ is GF doesn't change anything. in the NT rebids.

[barmar]

I think the more modern style is to be concerned with controls at responder's first bid, not total points (the first system I learned was Jacoby Steps, where each bid showed a 3-point range). I like to play that 2♦ shows at least one Ace or King or 2 useful Queens (useful meaning they're supported by a Jack or Ten, or in a long suit). 2♦ is not just game forcing, but suggests values that are likely to be useful in slam exploration.

 

As others have said, you should have close to a Yarborough to pass a suit bid by opener. If you have support, you should raise -- game might not make, but there's no good way to know, since opener is unlimited. Since you've already shown a double negative, partner won't get excited and go past game.

 

I also like to play that an opening 3NT shows 25-27, I don't particularly like Gambling 3NT, so 2♣-2♦-3NT shows 28+. But I recognize that I'm in the minority on this. More sophisticated players make use of Kokish Relay, to avoid having to jump.

[gwnn]

fred plays 2h as 'I would pass a (22-24) 2NT rebid.' Kind of cool.

[ggwhiz]

In my partnership 2♥ = 0-4 no A or K and a 2nt rebid over that MAY be passed. New suits are forcing but not to game, ie a 2♠ rebid can be raised to 3♠ or a new suit followed by 3♠ can be passed out but just about anything else gets to game.

 

I have had the auction 2♣ - 2♥ float and it was a top score missing a pair of AK's and a ruff.

 

The real advantage imo is that 2♦ is a game force and unlimited so that the opener can go low and slow in the auction.

[blackshoe]

A NT ladder:

 

10-12: open 1NT

13-16: open 1m, rebid 1NT

17-18: open 1m, rebid 2NT

19-20: open 2NT (this hand should have six controls)

21-22: open 2♦, rebid 2NT (Mexican 2♦, could also have a GF with primary diamonds, or a stronger balanced hand - see below) (seven controls)

23-24: open 2♣, rebid 2NT (eight controls)

25-26: open 2♣, rebid 2♥ (Kokish relay) then 2NT (nine controls)

27-28: open 2♦, rebid 3NT (forcing to 4NT or game in a major) (ten controls)

29-30: open 2♣, rebid 3NT (forcing to 4NT or game in a major) (eleven controls)

 

You could play the first two bids only when not vulnerable, and when vulnerable play

 

12-13: open 1m, rebid 1NT

14-16: open 1NT

[EricK]

I don't know whether it's best, but a simple to remember guideline is that after 2♥ you are forced to one level below game (i.e. the bidding can die in 2NT, 3♥/♠, or 4♣/♦). This means that opener should not bid 2♣ if he needs 2 tricks from partner, responder should not bid the double negative if he has almost 1 certain trick (eg a K, or 2 Q), and that if responder does bid the double negative he should re-evaluate his hand if it suddenly seems worth a trick (which in practice means trump support and an outside shortage).

[mikeh]

I have played 2♥ immediate negative in several serious partnerships, and consistently for some 30 years. Different partnerships have different rules.

 

My preference is that 2♥ denies an A or a K, but is otherwise unlimited. Some partners prefer that it denies and A or K and denies as much as two Q's. My preference for the former method is not so much about 2♥ as it is about 2♦. I like the fact that 2♦ promises an Ace or a King, rather than perhaps merely a couple of Queens, because on some of the rare truly big 2♣ openings, I can immediately tell whether slam is possible or not.

 

In practice, the results of our 2♣ sequences rarely (if ever) differ, so go with whichever you and partner find more comfortable.

 

As for how far it is forcing, the universal rule in all my partnerships (and I don't impose these rules...i am far more likely to want to play partner's methods than mine, at least initially) is that 2♣ creates a force to 2N, 3♠, 4♣/♦/♥.

 

The problem with the method espoused by an earlier poster....one below game....is that opener will sometimes hold a massive 2-suiter with hearts as the first suit to be shown. Now it is impractical to play 2♣ 2♥ 3♥ as passable.....the hand that passes 3♥ might make game or even slam in the second suit.

 

One way around this is to tend to lump balanced 'heart-suit' 2♣ openers into the 2N rebid if the range is ok. Ax AKJ10xx AQx Kx....I'd rebid 2N over 2♥, ostensibly a balanced 22-23, rather than a gf 3♥...gf on this hand opposite no Ace or K seems an overbid.

 

With respect to the ranges shown by notrump rebids, I see no reason to alter the meanings of the bids, with the possible exception of the jump to 3N. Especially if using the method that 2♥ denies as much as 2Q's, there is some merit in using the jump to 3N as simply to play...thus one might hold the balanced 24+ or one might hold a 9 playing trick hand. It is for your partnership to agree on this, since you can't do it on the 9 trick playing hand if partner is allowed to go to 4 major (directly or by a transfer)....you might hold say Ax A QJx AKQJxxx and 4♥ may not be optimum :P

[straube]

I like 2H immediate negative to be nf. I like opener's rebids to be...

 

2S-5+, f

2N-bal, nf

3m-m, f

3H-9 tricks, nf

3S-4S/5H,f

3N-bal, nf

4m-5H/5m, f

4H-H

[Codo]

I guess it depends a little on the meaning of the 2 ♣ bid. I play it in a way that all game forcing hands and all semiforcing hands are opened 2 club. In this context is 2 ♦ unlimited, 2 ♥ to play opposite a semiforcing in heart and 2 ♠ to play opps. a semiforcing in spades but positive about hearts.

 

In this context:

1. no

2 no

3 no

4 no

5. It is easier to play system on, but of course it is better to have different meanings for 2 NT and 3 NT...

[gnasher]

Bidding 2♣-2♦;3NT on a balanced hand is horrible, because it takes away all the space you need for exploring strain. Unless you play Kokish, it's clearly best to bid 2♣-2♦;2NT on all balanced hands. It's easy enough to sort out the ranges later - responder makes a slam try with a balanced 7+; opener makes a slam try with about 27+.

 

After 2♣-2♥, you're stuck with rebidding 3NT on 25+. At least the worst case is that you're in the wrong game, not the wrong slam.

[wank]

 

After 2♣-2♥, you're stuck with rebidding 3NT on 25+. At least the worst case is that you're in the wrong game, not the wrong slam.

 

playing this method, i play 2♠ by opener as GF bal, which leaves responder the 3 level to play with for stayman and xfers and so on though you need to fiddle with it a bit to make sure opener gets to play the contract.

 

i don't play a modern style of 2♣ opener though so i don't need a natural 2♠ rebid as i'm never stopping below game.

[benlessard]

1- Establish how weak can your 2C opener be. (usually with S you can be more agressive).

 

2 Decide if with borderline 2 suiters you prefer to open 1M and miss some game but have easier auctions most of the time.

 

2- define what is maximum crap on wich you could bid 2H neg. (i would never bid 2H with 4 pts and rarely with 3)

 

After that you will be well placed to play what is best for you. I dont like opening 2C so my hands tend to be heavy/ not often 2 suiters, so i play that 2H is real garbage. So 2H is not forcing and most opener rebid arent forcing. With a GF m hand i just bid 3NT knowing that slam is unlikely.

 

IMO 80% of 2C hands are near GF and only 20% are true GF (making game vs a 0-2 pts and no trumps support)

[blackshoe]

Better yet, build into your system more forcing opening bids, so that 2♣ isn't so friggin' overloaded.

 

For example:

 

1NT: artificial, basically any hand which in "standard" 2/1 would open 1suit and reverse or jump shift on the second round (so 4 or 5 losers), or a balanced 19-20 with 6 controls.

2♣: GF, any primary suit except diamonds, 3 losers or better if a major, 2 losers or better if a minor, or balanced 23-24 (8 controls) (in the sequence 2♣-2♦-2NT, the last bid is not forcing) or 29-30 (11 controls) (shown by rebidding 3NT, which is forcing to game in a major or 4NT).

2♦: GF with primary diamonds, or balanced 21-22 (7 controls) (rebid 2NT, NF) or 27-28 (10 controls) (forcing to game in a major or 4NT).

2NT: 25-26 balanced, 9 controls, forcing to game.

 

After a 2m opening and a minimum (negative) response, 3♦ shows a single suiter (either diamonds or clubs, depending on the opening bid), 3♣ shows a two suiter, the minor and another, after which 3♦ asks for the second suit, and 2M would show that major, while 3NT shows the other minor.

[Statto]

19-20: open 2NT (this hand should have six controls)

The wisdom I've received is that opening 2NT on a 19 count is generally not recommended. 6 controls would be about average; it's more likely to be the fillers and spots that would make the hand stand up to scrutiny B-)

[blackshoe]

Heh. Well, "received wisdom" might suggest that you need about 23 points between the two hands to make 2NT "safe". That doesn't make a 2NT opening on 19-20 a bad bid, if it fits with the rest of your system. Consider that on average responder should have about 7 points, and he only really needs about 4 to make 2NT "safe" (and with 6 he should probably put you in 3NT).

 

You might ask the fount of your wisdom whether he's ever tried the ladder I suggested.

[Statto]

I play Benji Acol with some partners which has a similar ladder structure. Discussion has suggested upping the higher echelons by about 1HCP, starting with the 2NT opener. A combined 23 HCP makes 2NT "safe", but only if they're distributed between the hands, affording some play. If they're all in one hand, you're often endplayed and have communication problems. A balanced 25 HCP opposite a yarborough will rarely be able to make 3NT. But we digress... :rolleyes:

[Phil]

Some ideas I've played.

 

1. With of my current partners we play 2C - 2H - 3M as NF. 2S is a artificial GF. Responder bids:2N - support for both. 3♣ support for neither. 3♦ = hearts. 3♥ = spades. Something like that.

 

2. With another he plays Kokish. So 2♠ is either spades or balanced. Don't quite remember how it works but he had a bulletin article a few years ago.

[rduran1216]

like mike, I too play 2H denies an Ace or King. The idea is, when you're headed slamming by yourself, its controls you care about, and knowing right away partner doesn't have an Ace or King clarifies the position for you alot of the time. Everyone can find the game they belong in after a 2C opener, the issue is finding the hand where u need to find out with partner has the K of diamonds to be cold, and starting with 2H denying Ace or King clarifies the position immediately.

[Fluffy]

max would be something like four jacks and a queen (yes, that's 5 points).

Were you director before computers when results were added by hand?, the new era has done so much damage...

 

 

 

[Free]

I play 2♥ as no Ace, no King, and not 2 Queens. You can have 6HCP max: 4 Jacks and a Queen.

 

For me it's not forcing. Opener may pass if he holds long ♥ and a light 2♣ opening. Rebidding 2♠ is also NF. Jumps (and 3♥) make the auction GF and set trumps. 4NT is specific Queen ask, which has been useful once.

 

I'm not claiming this is perfect, it just does what it has to do most of the time. These auctions are quite rare, so it's hard to evaluate imo.

[blackshoe]

Were you director before computers when results were added by hand?, the new era has done so much damage...

 

No, but I can certainly do it. As to damage, the damage is to my old brain, it has nothing to do with the existence of computers. I got careless. 4 Jacks is four points, and a Queen is one more point. :lol:

 

 

Don't worry about senility. When it happens, you won't notice. — Bill Cosby

[Vampyr]

 

2. With another he plays Kokish. So 2♠ is either spades or balanced. Don't quite remember how it works but he had a bulletin article a few years ago.

 

This is with Kokish and Roth combined?

[Zelandakh]

There are alot of options in this area and no real consensus that I have seen. One simple approach to using 2♥ as a double negative is to make your 2♣ opening "all of the usual hands plus a strong 2 in hearts". In this case the 2♥ response pretty much says that you do not think there is game opposite the Acol 2 hand. You can bundle further strong 2s into the 2♣ opening too but that gets more complicated.

 

If you do not include a strong 2 in hearts in the 2♣ opening then 2♣ - 2♥ is forcing - all Opener's rebids except 2NT are GF. In this case you also have more freedom in how to define the 2♥ double negative. Several options have already been posted and I have nothing really to add in this area. On your specific questions:-

 

1. If a strong 2♥ is included, no; otherwise yes.

2. Yes. If you include a strong 2♠ then typically the exact sequence 2♣ - 2♥; 2♠ - 2NT; 3♠ is non-forcing and others are GF.

3. Yes. It is a bad idea to include strong 2s in the minors imho. If you feel you need a bid for these then use a 2♦ opening instead (Multi or Benjy).

4. Yes, but it is possible to agree that 2♣ - 2♥; 2♠ - 2NT; 3♥ - 3♠ is non-forcing. This will depend largely on what you decide to do with major 2-suiters that would like to open a strong 2♠.

5. I would recommend some form of Kokish after 2♣ - 2♦.

 

In addition to some good advice in this thread I would also recommend reading Chris Ryall's write-up of his method which is similar to Codo's. You may not want to make the same system design decisions as he has but he does discuss the forcing nature of the follow-ups in some detail which might be useful to you.