What is your range

[lamford]

As there seemed to be a different opinion on the range for a 1NT response after 1M - (Dble), I would welcome player's opinions on this question. You can, of course, vote for more than one! We shall assume IMPs with you vulnerable against not. Thanks in advance.

[bluecalm]

I don't know anybody who plays 1NT as natural here, do people really play that ?

[lamford]

I don't know anybody who plays 1NT as natural here, do people really play that ?

I think that transfers are more and more popular, but I suspect over half of people do. I may be wrong.

[bluecalm]

In Poland old fashion was constructive raise with support and new fashion are transfers. I am yet to encounter natural.

[aguahombre]

I don't know anybody who plays 1NT as natural here, do people really play that ?

If you (and I) don't use 1NT as natural after 1SX, our answer to the poll is easy. It asks "With which of these would you bid a natural NT?"

[bluecalm]

Yeah, I know. I am just curious so I asked a bit off-topic question.

I had an impression that people who think about stuff like what range should 1NT here promises don't play that in the first place but maybe it's not the case in other countries ?

[wank]

i never heard of anyone playing it as a spade raise.

 

yes, good players play transfers here, but the vast majority play it as natural. natural does seem pointless though - XX if strong enough or pass and make a take-out double if suitable otherwise just defend.

[gnasher]

In order to make Paul's poll results meaningful, perhaps we can assume that he meant to ask "With which of these would you bid a natural NT, in a partnership where 1NT is natural?"

[aguahombre]

Yeah, I know. I am just curious so I asked a bit off-topic question.

I had an impression that people who think about stuff like what range should 1NT here promises don't play that in the first place but maybe it's not the case in other countries ?

O.K., sorry for the rant. IMO the floor if they play a natural NT should be a point higher than the bottom of the range for the XX (hence 7-10 for natural); I was venting my (latest) peeve: asking a question based on conditions and getting, instead, a debate on the conditions.

[lamford]

In order to make Paul's poll results meaningful, perhaps we can assume that he meant to ask "With which of these would you bid a natural NT, in a partnership where 1NT is natural?"

Indeed; and we leave out those that forget!

[bluecalm]

I was venting my (latest) peeve: asking a question based on conditions and getting, instead, a debate on the conditions.

 

Yeah I hate that too unless I am the one starting the debate :)

Anyway, if I played natural 1NT here I guess the point is to bid it before they do at matchpoints while not being doubled so 8-10(11) range sounds about right to me.

[ArtK78]

I play transfers here, but there is an argument for playing 1NT as natural. Especially at matchpoints, 1NT can easily be the right place to play the hand. Just because there is a double doesn't mean that 1NT will not be passed out.

 

As for the range, if 1NT is natural and nonforcing I don't see any reason why it should not be 6-10. This is especially true if both sides are not vulnerable, as it is important to grab 1NT. Declaring 1NT is always an advantate at matchpoints if there is a fixed amount of tricks to be taken by either side (assuming no double). If your side can score 5, 6, 7 or 8 tricks, you score -100, -50, +90 or +120 as declarer or -120, -90, +50 or +100 as defenders. Of course, it is often the case that you can score an additional trick or two as declarer.

[WellSpyder]

i never heard of anyone playing it as a spade raise.

I do in one partnership. It has never seemed particularly helpful, but the idea is similar to what most of us do a level higher: after 1♠ double 2N is a sound raise to 3♠ while a direct 3♠ is distributional. Similarly at the 2-level, 1N is a sound raise to 2♠ and a direct 2♠ is weaker.

[P_Marlowe]

All.

 

I am simple minded. Would I have bid 1NT without the

intervention? Sure.

 

The first is borderline, but I would still bid it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gordontd]

I don't know anybody who plays 1NT as natural here, do people really play that ?

My guess would be that at least 95% of players here play 1NT as natural, though maybe only about 75% of serious tournament players.

[gnasher]

The point of bidding 1NT is so that partner knows you have some points, so that if he has some shape he'll know it's a good idea to compete. If, instead, we pass and then double for takeout, we force our side to compete regardless of partner's hand. It's obviously safer to bid something that lets us play in 1NT or 2m, than to pass and then double 2♥ for takeout.

 

It's an excellent idea to have two ways to raise to the two level, but there's no particular reason to use 1NT for one of them. 2♣ is often used as a good raise.

[bluecalm]

I am simple minded. Would I have bid 1NT without the

intervention? Sure.

 

In constructive bidding it's profitable to bid 1NT on all kind of junk with 4hcp or something hoping for game or improved partial or preempting opponents.

Here if you bid 1NT on junk (like 6pc or something) you are very likely to get doubled there or wherever you run as they already know something about their hcp distribution.

[phil_20686]

Playing imps it is routine to play this as 8-11. There is no need to keep the bidding open since partner is getting another bid. This also helps partner a lot when he has those annoying 15 point hands that you dont know what to do with after 1S P 1N P, now he knows you are in the upper half so it is safe for him to make a game try.

 

Playing MP there is an argument for playing 1N as fairly wide ranging as you might just want to play there quite a lot. I still play it as 8-11.

 

Even if you play transfers, there are two styles, one which just gives you an extra way to bid 2s and basically gives up the XX, and one where you give up the NT bid but keep the XX, when I play transfers i prefer to playthe former rather than the latter, so I would bid 1S transfer to a NT with 8-11.

 

Also, if you play a light opening style bidding 1N on a 5 or 6 count is a good way to go for 500.

[lamford]

Playing imps it is routine to play this as 8-11. There is no need to keep the bidding open since partner is getting another bid. This also helps partner a lot when he has those annoying 15 point hands that you dont know what to do with after 1S P 1N P, now he knows you are in the upper half so it is safe for him to make a game try.

How does he make a game try if he is not balanced? Surely everyone plays 3m as game-forcing.

[Finch]

I don't see any point in playing it as 8-11, that's just giving too calls (xx and 1NT) virtually the same meaning.

I think, if natural, it should be weaker than a redouble.

[jallerton]

How does he make a game try if he is not balanced? Surely everyone plays 3m as game-forcing.

 

With an invitational hand Opener can:

 

• Raise to 2NT with a balanced or semi-balanced hand
  
• jump to 3♠ to invite with 6 (or 7) spades
  
• bid a second suit at the 2-level, then bid again on the next round over partner's raise or (possibly false) preference bid.
  

[Poky]

Playing a natural 1NT after the double is a bad usage of this bid (assuming it is IMPs)

If you want to play NT, you shouldn't have any problem with them bidding and playing NT.

[phil_20686]

I don't see any point in playing it as 8-11, that's just giving too calls (xx and 1NT) virtually the same meaning.

I think, if natural, it should be weaker than a redouble.

 

There are plenty of hands which aren't ideal for a a XX despite being 8-11.

 

I reserve xx for hands with good holdinds in at least two suits, and bid 1NT with hands that dont look right for penalising. For example: Kx Jxx Q86x A765 - do you really want to be trying to penalise 2m with those holdings in the suits? On teh other hand, a hand like x QJ9x KQTx QT98 is ideal for the XX.

 

I have found hands suitable for XX to be pretty rare, and given the choice I would give that up in preference to a natural 1N bid.

[lamford]

[*]bid a second suit at the 2-level, then bid again on the next round over partner's raise or (possibly false) preference bid.

The problem is that partner may well be 2-3 in your suits; after the takeout double, which tends to have the three other suits, this is more likely. The 1NT bidder has defined his hand more narrowly than in an uncontested auction, so will be reluctant to raise to the 3-level, and the 5-2 fit is unattractive after the takeout double, so false preference is dangerous. If all non-forcing 2m bids and all non-game-forcing invitational+ hands have to bid 2m and hope to get a response, then this represents too wide a range. Not to mention the problems that occur when your LHO jumps in hearts and your hand is poorly defined.

[lamford]

I don't see any point in playing it as 8-11, that's just giving too calls (xx and 1NT) virtually the same meaning.

I think, if natural, it should be weaker than a redouble.

I agree, and the poll seems to indicate, that 8-11 is too high. g7-b10 would seem to be the range suggested by the poll, with the actual range obviously agreed by each partnership. But I cannot agree that XX and 1NT will have "virtually the same meaning". 1NT shows a balanced hand, while redouble may be less balanced and has no real upper range. It is also used, I believe, to show a 3-card raise, too good for 2S, in some methods.