Rebid problem

[dboxley]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat743hkqj65dq5ca&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1sp1np]133|200[/hv]

 

your bid

[TWO4BRIDGE]

2H ....I think I'm a tad shy for a 3H SJS.

[nigel_k]

2♥.

 

Obviously hands can be constructed where partner will pass and game is cold, but across the entire range of hands that partner might hold I feel pretty confident that 2♥ will work out better than 3♥ on average.

 

Edited to correct obvious mistake.

Edited January 27, 2012 by nigel_k

[mgoetze]

3♥ in any bidding system I'd want to play.

[mike777]

2h

 

will rebid 3h over 2s.

[masse24]

2♥

 

"problem"?

[mgoetze]

2♥

 

"problem"?

 

Maybe it's a riddle... try to figure out which bidding system the OP is playing so that this is a problem.

[gszes]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat743hkqj65dq5ca&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1sp1np]133|200[/hv]

 

your bid

2h at MP I have no strong disagreement with 3h

3h at IMPS

[Phil]

2♥. Sometimes I will survive the overbid of 3♥ and sometimes I won't.

 

If 3♥ isn't GF, or we play a Gazilli variant, hands like this are easier to manage.

[Onedown]

I like 2 1/2 ♥. At imps I think 2♥ is an underbid and 3♥ shaded but I would really hate to miss game if we have a fit and partner has an 8 count, with a 3 card fit and he passes 2♥. I think my 3♥bid shd imply a decent 5-5 and the 16 HCP I have.

[Onedown]

2♥

 

"problem"?

Todd you are playing way too many MP games... :blink:

[benlessard]

2H, that why when partner raise to 3H its called a courtesy raise. Also if partner bid 2S ill make another move with 3H.

 

That one of the main idea of my system (Chapi) min or jumpshifts hands are open 1S since they will have no rebids problems and 2.5 hands are open a strong clubs so in the end we rarely need invites bids.

[kenrexford]

This is, IMO, one of the more difficult problems in bidding, and one of the least recognized as such. Obviously, if you just rebid 2♥ with this hand, Responder ends up with a lot of pressure on him, with the result being either missed games or playing 3♥ down one or two, sometimes even on a 4-3 "fit."

 

There are some solutions for this problem, however.

 

1. Some use a Power 2NT rebid. Hence, after a forcing 1NT, 2NT by Opener is simply GF and a relay (soft relay, meaning that Responder can break the relay to describe some hand types) to 3♣, after which Opener shows what he has. The Power 2NT allows a JS to show a "5-5-5" hand, meaning 5-5 shape with about five losers.

 

2. Some add in either Gazilli or a 2♣ as semi-artificial and semi-forcing (plus Bart).

 

3. Some also add in something like "Sparts 2♦." The "Sparts 2♦" that I know (there is another convention called this, but I know this one) is a 2♦ opening showing 5♠/4-5♥ and a minimum opening (10-12 or so), with 1♠-1NT-2♥ then showing sound values (if in conjunction with Power 2NT, probably 5-4 with about 14-16, 13's being upgraded or downgraded as appropriate). Sort of like Reverse Flannery, but more flexible, perhaps, and not pattern oriented as much as strength.

[mcphee]

2H is what you are worth. 3H is for players who think their partners are incapable of bidding their hands.

[kenrexford]

2H is what you are worth. 3H is for players who think their partners are incapable of bidding their hands.

 

This is not as easy as you suggest, IMO.

 

If partner has ♠Kx ♥Axx and whatever small cards you want in the minors, 4♥ has great play and may even make an overtrick.

 

Reduce your hand, however, to ♠Axxxx ♥KQJx ♦Qxx ♣x, and 2♥ might even be in jeopardy.

 

The point is that partner is not capable of bidding their hand, not because of a lack of skill but because of a lack of space and safety.

[gnasher]

With ♠Kx and ♥Axx, partner has a routine 2♠ bid. One of the reasons for giving false preference is to give us another go when we have a hand like this one.

 

The problem is when partner has a singleton spade. A hand like x Axxx xxxx Qxxx will produce ten tricks easily, but he'll pass 2♥ with that.

 

If we're lucky enough not to be playing 2/1, a partial solution to this problem is to use 2NT as a real heart raise and 3♥ as a courtesy raise.

[Fluffy]

I only need ♥Axx ♠xx across for a shot at game, what are you guys doing with 2♥?

 

For me it is even bete since 3♥ shows 5-5

[mgoetze]

This is, IMO, one of the more difficult problems in bidding, and one of the least recognized as such.

 

This seems to be me to be a very North American point of view.

[P_Marlowe]

2H.

 

You dont have the values, to force to game.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[MrAce]

2♥ for me.

 

My reasons are;

 

1- We want to bid 3♥ because we have 5-5 but 3♥ will not show 5-5, it will show 5-4 gf hand regardless of what pd has. Its not like by bidding 3♥ we are gonna find our best game even if there is one.

 

2-1 NT response neither promised nor implied a balanced hand, he may have a long minor suit, or both of them.

 

2♥ bid can occasionally may miss a borderline game, as Andy suggested but i think this sort of hands are being over concerned. Think about this way, not only pd may have total misfit but also if we are going to lower the bar of jumpshifts to this (without gazilli or etc ) then this will also cause problems in the hands where we have real jump shift hands with same shape, because as far as i see the names who cheer for the 3♥, also stated that they hate to open 2♣ with 2 suiters in other topics.

[the hog]

2H. The hand is worth 2 1/2 H but that is not a legal bid. Of course I will bid 3H over 2S.

[rhm]

2♥ for me.

 

My reasons are;

 

...

2♥ bid can occasionally may miss a borderline game, as Andy suggested but i think this sort of hands are being over concerned.

 

I consider this the understatement of the year.

A borderline game for me is a partner hand, where game has about 50% chance, not one where game may be cold and an overtrick likely and partner still has good reason to pass 2♥.

 

This will happen almost always when partner has 3 hearts and a singleton spade or if he has 4 cards in hearts and a minimum 1NT response with shortage in spades.

Yes, I am better off bidding 2♥ if the hand is a total misfit and partner is not maximum for his 1NT response.

 

I am prepared to bet against this outcome. It is a matter of probabilities. Is it more likely that partner will pass 2♥ when you have game or that you will get overboard if you bid 3♥?

I think chances are just too good that we have a heart fit after this start. This is partly a matter of hand evaluation. Exchange my majors and 2♥ would be clearcut.

How can responder tell when you bid only 2♥ either way? He can't.

 

I think 2♥ is a clear-cut error at all forms of scoring and for those, for whom game forces must be underwritten by llyods play a different game.

 

And let's not forget there are hands where the aim is not to reach 4♥ but 6♥, partner having something like ♠x, ♥Axxx, ♦KJTxx, ♣xxx .

 

I have seen people (not you of course) playing 2♥+4 more than once.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[phil_20686]

This is not as easy as you suggest, IMO.

 

If partner has ♠Kx ♥Axx and whatever small cards you want in the minors, 4♥ has great play and may even make an overtrick.

 

Reduce your hand, however, to ♠Axxxx ♥KQJx ♦Qxx ♣x, and 2♥ might even be in jeopardy.

 

The point is that partner is not capable of bidding their hand, not because of a lack of skill but because of a lack of space and safety.

 

?????

 

If partner has a doubleton spade he will putyou back unless he has 4 hearts. If he has 4 hearts he will raise unless he is at the very bottom of his range. If partner is 1-3 in the majors game will not be good.

 

If partner puts you back to two spades you have a 3h bid shoulding 55 and 15-18 ish but not enough to GF, which gets your hand across nicely.

 

IMO the real problem hand is Axxxxx AKJTx x x, now a hand like x Qxx xxxx Axxxx will pass 2H despite being cold for game. fortunately these hands that play will opposite a stiff in your first suit are pretty rare.

[kenrexford]

A couple of people seem to be thinking that Responder's ability to correct back to 2♠ with 2♠/3♥ solves the problem, because this allows Opener to rebid again.

 

The problem, however, as I mentioned was two-fold. Sure, the "greater problem" from the standpoint of missing game is the 1♠/3♥ scenario. But, playing in an inferior 2♠ with a 5-2 fit and going down one can also be as bad at matchpoints when the 4-3 or even 5-3 heart fit makes. The courtesy correction has its own problem when Opener has a bare minimum and Responder is light.

[mikeh]

This is a routine, utterly routine, 2♥ bid.

 

Of course we may miss a few games. That's life.

 

The overbidders who bid 3♥ gf on this hand always go on and on about how well this works when partner has the unlikely but plausible hand that causes the partnership to miss game over 2♥, and never, ever, seem to recognize that their approach endplays partner on a host of more probable hands, and seriously impairs the auction on the admittedly few hands where, opposite a real gf, slam is available..

 

If you find that bidding 2♥ on these hands creates real problems in your partnerships, then either get a better partner (if the problem is that partner is passing 2♥ when he shouldn't) or change methods.

 

Big club methods, for example, handle these hands very well. They carry baggage of course, else all top pairs would play big club rather than a substantial minority as is the case.

 

No method handles all hands well. 2/1 doesn't handle this one well. That doesn't justify calling this hand a gf. Just accept that some hands fall into the seams in the method, live with it and move on.