Bbradley62 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 [hv=pc=n&w=sk652hq976d6cak82&e=sat83hj83dj5c7543&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2dp3ddppp]266|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 West may be a little light for the double, but east passing it is just bizarre. 3♠x-2 won't be great either, so west shares some blame. OK, it might only be -1 and might not be doubled, but even so there's not much to gain versus -130 defending 3♦. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 IMO, the blame goes to the one who, at these colors, started the problem. Of course East's pass of the double was ludicrous. A reasonable East would have selected 3S, incurring a less bad result. But E/W really couldn't get a good result after West's double. They should be at least minus 200. That double is one of those "Didn't you notice I opened the bidding?", or "Did you forget to make a negative double last time?" calls. That is why West should get the blame for a bad board. East gets the blame for it not being a bad board in 3S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 That is why West should get the blame for a bad board. East gets the blame for it not being a bad board in 3S. Yes, they were both insane. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Frances said what I was going to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 east is mad. west is bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Both streched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 I voted mostly East because I have a little more (not much of course) symphaty for Wests double. He has the perfect shape and it could be possible, that they will miss a major fit, if he passes now. At least he was right with this. :) Still his double is insane, but nothing compared with East choice.Passing 3 Diamond doubled is simply not bridge as I know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Wests double carries some risk but it is probably worth it in the long run, much depends on partners style for the negative double. FOr me I would not ever double with less than about 8HCP if I only had one major, might stretch a little with both, so 3S could easily be cold. Also, if east bids 3S confidently, there is no reason to expect NS to double them. Obviously seeing the EW hands we would like to double, but give east AQxxx x xxx Jxxx and 3Sx would probably be cold, and its reasonably unlikely either of them can know enough to tell the difference. Sure sometimes you catch south with QJ9xS, but that means the other has a stiff spade and a ten card diamond fit, and might easily choose not to sit it. I think that wests double is fine. Passing would also be fine, its partly a style thing of whether you want to be in this auction, sure bad things can happen, but good things can happen too. Sometimes 3S will me making, sometimes they will go on to 4d, some times 3s-1 will save a few imps anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 [hv=pc=n&w=sk652hq976d6cak82&e=sat83hj83dj5c7543&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2dp3ddppp]266|200[/hv] I suspect if the east hand had been ATxxx Kx xxx xxx suddenly everyone would be much more forgiving about wests action. Although then we would have to put up with all the NFB crowd telling us how wonderful it would be to bid 2S on this hand. :) Also, you didnt say what 1c was, and it makes a difference. If it is short in the style of "could be any weak nt with no 5 card suit" I think that failure to preprotect is a major error. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 I appologize, this is what happens when u read 2 topics at the same time in different windows and try to upvote a thread and accidently end up upvoting another one :( To me it is completely East's fault, since we are judging the doubled making 3♦, not what would happen to 3♠. But now reading other posters i think i am about to be convinced that it is hard to not assign any blame to west (as i didnt in my vote) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 IMO, the blame goes to the one who, at these colors, started the problem. Of course East's pass of the double was ludicrous. A reasonable East would have selected 3S, incurring a less bad result. But E/W really couldn't get a good result after West's double. They should be at least minus 200. That double is one of those "Didn't you notice I opened the bidding?", or "Did you forget to make a negative double last time?" calls. That is why West should get the blame for a bad board. East gets the blame for it not being a bad board in 3S. I concur with what AH and Frances have posted. The majority of the blame, however goes to the failure to take out the very poor x. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 IMO, the blame goes to the one who, at these colors, started the problem. Of course East's pass of the double was ludicrous. A reasonable East would have selected 3S, incurring a less bad result. But E/W really couldn't get a good result after West's double. They should be at least minus 200. That double is one of those "Didn't you notice I opened the bidding?", or "Did you forget to make a negative double last time?" calls. That is why West should get the blame for a bad board. East gets the blame for it not being a bad board in 3S. I concur with what AH and Frances have posted. The majority of the blame, however goes to the failure to take out the very poor x. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh51 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree with the others that this is a question of who is more to blame. I cannot see doubling with west's hand - partner already had a chance to bid and did not. At IMPs you let them have their part score - East cannot possibly have enough for game. But at this scoring, East is nuts for passing. His partner should have a pretty good hand (not the actual hand) with something like 4414 shape. Where does he think that defensive tricks are going to come from? With just a bit more, I would think that East should be thinking about a spade game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 [hv=pc=n&w=sk652hq976d6cak82&e=sat83hj83dj5c7543&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2dp3ddppp]266|200[/hv] The result merchants criticize West with hindsight, the successful players might duplicate West's action. Sure West's DBL is aggressive but he has ideal shape in the majors and corresponding shortage in ♦. This DBL is really unlikely to backfire and 2 down undoubled at IMPs against a making part-score is no tragedy. Who of the opponents will likely double a part-score at IMPs when holding a ten card fit in their own suit? West can see that East might not be able to negative double when quite a bit stronger, but holding only one major and if East does reopen with a double how do West-East find the right major? From West perspective it was really unlucky that his partner had only 5 working points and only 2 cards in ♦. As it happens, opponents would probably do well in 3NT, but might well compete over 3♠ with 4♦. After all they do have a ten card fit.Also note, that when opponents have a ten card fit it is rather unlucky when your side gets only an 8 card fit. The chances for that to happen is 22.7%, In 47% of the deals you will have a nine card fit and in the remaining 30% of the deals you will have a ten card fit or better yourself. This would not matter much, but it looks that the total number of tricks is probably significantly lower than 18 here.Unlucky. [hv=pc=n&w=sk652hq976d6cak82&e=sq3hkj832dj5cjt93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2dp3dppp]266|200[/hv]ATB for letting North South play 3♦ I consider the critic on West really overblown Rainer Herrmann 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 ATB for letting North South play 3♦ I consider the critic on West really overblown Rainer HerrmannThere would have been no blame for letting N/S play 3♦. That is what should have happened. The blame for letting them play it doubled is clearly on East. The blame for creating a no-win situation is clearly on West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 There would have been no blame for letting N/S play 3♦. That is what should have happened. The blame for letting them play it doubled is clearly on East. The blame for creating a no-win situation is clearly on West. There is no question that East is at fault, but West? On my alternate layout I changed the East hand with an identical West hand and 4♥ is a very reasonable contract. Letting opponents make a partial in ♦ would not be my idea of winning Bridge at IMPs Rainer Herrmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 On your alternate layout, East should make a neg double IMO. He has club support in case West bids spades. When East doesn't make a neg double, West's double of 3D becomes poor. As described in an earlier post, it says "Did you forget I opened the bidding and forget to act over 2D?" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 On your alternate layout, East should make a neg double IMO. He has club support in case West bids spades. When East doesn't make a neg double, West's double of 3D becomes poor. As described in an earlier post, it says "Did you forget I opened the bidding and forget to act over 2D?"Maybe East should make a negative double and maybe he shouldn't. I can already see the disaster happening when the EW hands are:[hv=pc=n&w=sk652h976daq6ck82&e=sq3hkj832dj5cjt93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2ddp2sp3cp]266|200[/hv] It would be different if East would actually have club support, but he doesn't. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Maybe East should make a negative double and maybe he shouldn't. I can already see the disaster happening when the EW hands are:[hv=pc=n&w=sk652h976daq6ck82&e=sq3hkj832dj5cjt93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2ddp2sp3cp]266|200[/hv] It would be different if East would actually have club support, but he doesn't. Rik With my luck the bidding would go [hv=pc=n&w=sk652h976da62cak2&e=sq3hkj832dj5cjt93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1c2dd3d3sp4cdppp]266|200[/hv] If 2♥ over 2♦ is forcing any action other than Pass by vulnerable East is asking for trouble. Rainer Herrmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 There is no question that East is at fault, but West? On my alternate layout I changed the East hand with an identical West hand and 4♥ is a very reasonable contract. Letting opponents make a partial in ♦ would not be my idea of winning Bridge at IMPs Rainer Herrmann You are a funny man, Reinhardt. Forgot to double? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I agree with Frances and others that both made serious mistakes, but I think that east's mistake far worse than west's. West was way too light for the double but this may have been a useful mistake. West is trying to compete aggressively and when you try to change your style you sometimes err on either side, and sometimes you err badly. It's hard to give a positive spin to east's pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 You are a funny man, Reinhardt. Forgot to double?First, my name is not Reinhardt. Who forgot to double? East? Nor do I know what is funny, rather it is a matter of hand evaluation and judgment. When confronted with a bidding disaster try to avoid hindsight when you see both hands. I said it is risky for East to double with minimum values and anything but ideal distribution. Trinidad as well as me showed how disaster may unfold from a negative double by East. Assuming no negative free bids, Pass by East does not deny moderate values, nor holding length in one of the majors. In fact it is almost certain from West's perspective when diamonds get raised. It is in my opinion far more risky in the long run to double after 1♣-2♦ with ♠Q3,♥KJ832,♦J5,♣JT93 than to double after 1♣-2♦-3♦ with ♠K652,♥Q976,♦6;♣AK82. Granted West has minimum HCP values and is a level higher, but West knows that North-South have a fit; he has shortage in diamonds and ideal distribution in the majors, East with the above example does not. It is close, but I would double with the West hand at IMPs, deeming a penalty double unlikely, -200 is no disaster when 3♦ makes. Being vulnerable at Matchpoints, the issue would be much closer. Rainer Herrmann 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I agree with Rainer. I am not 100% sure that I would double myself with th West hand, but I would never object to a partner who would. On the other hand, if my partner would pass the double on the East hand from the OP and consider it the correct action then that would be the last problem I would have with this partner. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 ... that would be the last problem I would have with this partner. Rik Optimistically assuming its the last board of the match.... But I also agree with Rik and Rainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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