Fluffy Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 1NT of course, as did before. first: 1NT doesn´t promise stopper, but a 12-14 balanced.second: partner wont stayin 1NT with 5♠, ,he autobids 2♠ knowing we have 7 card fit and that the only way to make ♠ a source of tricks is to play in that suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 1NT of course, as did before. first: 1NT doesn´t promise stopper, but a 12-14 balanced.second: partner wont stayin 1NT with 5♠, ,he autobids 2♠ knowing we have 7 card fit and that the only way to make ♠ a source of tricks is to play in that suit. Totally agree ! Same for me, 1 NT ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Hi .. the problem is surely caused by playing 1S as forcing. Playing either two-way neg X's (or Misho's Eq style ) y have no problem. If y dony have to rebid there is no problem.. otherwise i bid 2S reluctantlyRgds Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 "Well, there's a thread about SAYC where lots of people open 1♦ with 4 ♦s and 5 ♣s, so it seems people also open this way in NATURAL systems, like the one we're talking about. So you see the problem is not always about people 'not reading all posts', sometimes it's just about people 'think' other people don't read all posts. " Frederick, you have just exactly proved my point. People open 1D IF and WHEN the C suit is not rebiddable. They do NOT bid this way if you have a natural 2C rebid.Anyway dead discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhar Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Bidding 1NT is just begging to play 3NT losing the first five heart tricks. Put me in the 2 Club camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 1NT, not as a lie :P good example to my thory that 1nt behind the suit doesnt show a stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 About the partscore argument, i strongly disagree with Ron, 1NT is a great partscore and will make more times then 2d/2c, and also get more points for an overtrick. also 2c is very likely to get us higher in clubs or diamonds, partner will fight for the contract, and will enaluate his hand wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 About the partscore argument, i strongly disagree with Ron, 1NT is a great partscore and will make more times then 2d/2c, and also get more points for an overtrick. also 2c is very likely to get us higher in clubs or diamonds, partner will fight for the contract, and will enaluate his hand wrong. If 1NT becomes the final contract, it is OK with me. My problem is, what if pd has a hand (almost) strong enough to force to game? I know, you would say "pd then should check back if I really have I stopper". To me, it is absurd to check back while my NT already says stopper. And I hate too much gadgets which takes away the natural meanings of some bids. When I bid (1)NT, I guarantee stopper (at least Kx or Qxx). And if pd wants to check on slam, he will know I have some honor(s) on opp's suit. For the hand given on the thread, I will bid 2C and apologize to pd if it leads to a bad contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 About the partscore argument, i strongly disagree with Ron, 1NT is a great partscore and will make more times then 2d/2c, and also get more points for an overtrick. also 2c is very likely to get us higher in clubs or diamonds, partner will fight for the contract, and will enaluate his hand wrong. If 1NT becomes the final contract, it is OK with me. My problem is, what if pd has a hand (almost) strong enough to force to game? I know, you would say "pd then should check back if I really have I stopper". To me, it is absurd to check back while my NT already says stopper. And I hate too much gadgets which takes away the natural meanings of some bids. When I bid (1)NT, I guarantee stopper (at least Kx or Qxx). And if pd wants to check on slam, he will know I have some honor(s) on opp's suit. For the hand given on the thread, I will bid 2C and apologize to pd if it leads to a bad contract. That's the point though! None of the bids accurately describe the hand. You want 1NT to promise a stopper and are prepared to lie about your suit lengths, others want to tell the truth about their shape and point count and lie about the honour location. Why is one more natural than the other? Why is one more likely to lead to disaster than the other? Why is bidding 2♣ and then apologising to partner better than bidding 1NT then apologising to partner?! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 HeartA, best solution is to just lead fifth highest against their 3N contract - the Ten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 That's the point though! None of the bids accurately describe the hand. You want 1NT to promise a stopper and are prepared to lie about your suit lengths, others want to tell the truth about their shape and point count and lie about the honour location. Why is one more natural than the other? Why is one more likely to lead to disaster than the other? Why is bidding 2♣ and then apologising to partner better than bidding 1NT then apologising to partner?! Eric Why? Because there are LOTS of occasion I need to bid (1)NT, which guarantees stopper on opp's suit. There is little chance I will encounter this kind situation (as I said, I don't remember I ever did). And I don't want to lie about this. Besides, I only exagerate the length of C by one card. As I said earlier, this discussion will go to nowhere. I will NEVER bid NT without stopper of opp's suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 About the partscore argument, i strongly disagree with Ron, 1NT is a great partscore and will make more times then 2d/2c, and also get more points for an overtrick. also 2c is very likely to get us higher in clubs or diamonds, partner will fight for the contract, and will enaluate his hand wrong. If 1NT becomes the final contract, it is OK with me. My problem is, what if pd has a hand (almost) strong enough to force to game? I know, you would say "pd then should check back if I really have I stopper". To me, it is absurd to check back while my NT already says stopper. And I hate too much gadgets which takes away the natural meanings of some bids. When I bid (1)NT, I guarantee stopper (at least Kx or Qxx). And if pd wants to check on slam, he will know I have some honor(s) on opp's suit. For the hand given on the thread, I will bid 2C and apologize to pd if it leads to a bad contract. I also hate "checking back" for stoppers after a NT bid which should have promised a stopper. I love to bid NT without stopper in front of a limited partner, who won't raise me to game so we'll just play 1NT.But when game may be on I want to describe to pard where my VALUES are, being more flexible on length than on honors location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 I think bidding 2C here is masterminding. There's no reason to embark on a misdescription of the hand when neither opener or responder have made a limiting bid. As far as I am concerned, a 2C bid is just bad bidding strategy. If 1NT really gives you the creeps, bid 2D. At least you'll be lying by 1 card, not two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Bidding 1NT is just begging to play 3NT losing the first five heart tricks. Put me in the 2 Club camp. You are plenty of space to find about real stopper between 1 and 3 NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 It's all back to style and preference... There are 2 main roads: 1 ) you don't need a stopper to bid 1NT, since you're in front of their long suit: you have NO problems, and you don't need to lie about anything, just bid 1NT. 2 ) you need a stopper to bid 1NT: then you have to lie about something, and it seems most people rather lie about shape than about their stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 wow, im surprised im the only 2S bidder here. Is it really so bad to raise partner in a sure 7 card fit with Ace doubleton and a prime hand? I think 2C is sick with 4-3 in the minors and is a GROSS distortion. 1N is a very reasonable call, and good easily be the winner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 I think 2S is sick, almost as sick as 1NT. Don't tell me you are one of those nutters that play 1S shows 5 and X shows 4 here? What a chronic waste of a bid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 lol this is the sayc and 2/1 discussion board...in sayc and 2/1 1S shows 5... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Mbe, but seriously who plays that these days? Not in serious bridge anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 in USA almost everybody plays that, experts or not. Not sure about other parts of the world. I obviously wouldnt raise if partner could have a 4 card suit :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 are you saying sayc and 2/1 is not "serious bridge", hog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Funny that. Here I would regard anyone who plays that as an easy mark. In Poland no one plays it as well. Think of the wasted hands you can show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 i agree that it is inferior (especially in strong clubs). i prefer to play that X= 4+ spades and 1S denies spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Agree - even better to have 1S show -ve X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 About the partscore argument, i strongly disagree with Ron, 1NT is a great partscore and will make more times then 2d/2c, and also get more points for an overtrick. also 2c is very likely to get us higher in clubs or diamonds, partner will fight for the contract, and will enaluate his hand wrong. If 1NT becomes the final contract, it is OK with me. My problem is, what if pd has a hand (almost) strong enough to force to game? I know, you would say "pd then should check back if I really have I stopper". To me, it is absurd to check back while my NT already says stopper. And I hate too much gadgets which takes away the natural meanings of some bids. When I bid (1)NT, I guarantee stopper (at least Kx or Qxx). And if pd wants to check on slam, he will know I have some honor(s) on opp's suit. For the hand given on the thread, I will bid 2C and apologize to pd if it leads to a bad contract. You dont need to many gadget, nothing is easier, just agree 1nt doesnt promiss a stop and the rest will be clear and easy. yes if you dont want to agree on that you have a problem and start laying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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