What are your thoughts?

[CSGibson]

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You hold the north hand, and south, a good player with whom you play 2 or 3 times a year, throws this auction at you. What are your thoughts, and how do you want to continue?

[mike777]

3s agrees spades as trumps

4c=cuebid, slam try for spades.

 

I would try 4h now. I have a super hand for pard.

[Cthulhu D]

IMHO 3D is some second suit, natural and game forcing, 3S agrees trumps for game, and 4C is a cue as part of a slam try. 4H seems like the next logical step. A perfect minimum for partner's bidding should be good for 6S.

[Phil]

I would bid 4♦ and I think its obvious.

 

Some concern partner has a void club, but AKxxx xxx Axxxx is deenuts.

[mikeh]

Wow....I seem to be all alone, maybe justifiably so, in being concerned that 4♣ might be natural. How would/should we bid in response to 1N with Axxxx void AJxx KQJx?

 

Looks to me as if one might want to show the 5th spade, then suggest we consider diamonds, and when partner says 'no', check back for clubs.

 

Of course, we'd bid the same way with AKJxx xx AJxx Kx, not being able to bid keycard with that heart holding.

 

If we bid Phil's obvious 4♦, what is partner going to do with either hand? I doubt that many B/I players want to hear that 4♥ is LTTC :D

 

My choice, which I was writing before I ssw Phil's post, was 4♥.

 

Partner is slamming and we have wonderful cards, tho minimum in hcp, so we are definitely slam-positive here. What we need to do is to tell partner that we are non-horrible (horrible means we bid 4♠ to apply the brakes), while preserving our chances of playing in clubs.

 

If partner bids 4♠, I'll bid 6♣ to offer a choice of black suits.

 

If he keycards, then he isn't 5=0=4=4, imo, and I'll just tell him that I own 2 with the Q and see what he does. More likely, given his diamond holding, he'll do something else....maybe even 5N pick a slam, over which I have an easy 6♣.

[Cthulhu D]

Wow....I seem to be all alone, maybe justifiably so, in being concerned that 4♣ might be natural. How would/should we bid in response to 1N with Axxxx void AJxx KQJx?

 

 

If he had a 5-0-4-4 why not splinter after 2S? I guess he might want an extra trump for that, but it's much less likely to result in absolute confusion.

[mikeh]

If he had a 5-0-4-4 why not splinter after 2S? I guess he might want an extra trump for that, but it's much less likely to result in absolute confusion.

 

 

Splintering sets trump.

[kenrexford]

This is a tough auction to read without discussion. There seem to be four normal schools of thought here:

 

1. "If it can be natural, it is natural"

In this school, as Mike suggested, the expectation is that 4♣ shows a fragment or better, meaning 5053, 5044, or 5143 shape. Opposite any of these hands, I have at least four cover cards (spade Queen, two diamonds, and the club Ace), plus a potential cover card (heart Ace opposite 5-1-4-3); the heart Ace certainly is not that bad. If partner is of the "natural" school, it seems like bidding 4♦ will be what partner wants to hear. (I don;t understand Mike's reasoning here -- to bid what partner does not want to hear to avert him having a problem when I bid what he does want to hear. This seems insanely backwards.)

 

2. Default Third-Suit Short Folks

I think maybe Kokish came up with this. ot sure. But, the basic idea is that when one person shows two suits, one of which is supported and agreed, then the third suit call is a shortness bid. This is not universal in all auctions but it is common in many sequences. Which sequences is a question that requires some feel for the concept (or agreements) to unwind, but this seems like a fairly normal candidate. In that event, 4♣ is shortness. As my hearts and clubs are functionally identical, though, I am not concerned -- I bid just like I would if 4♣ was a fragment. artner knows which he has. I am lucky to have the same holding in both round suits. Life is good.

 

3. Aces First Cuebidders

The third group is the traditional cuebidders. If partner means this as a first-round control, he has a club void. So, I end up with the exact same situation, again, as after 4♣ as a shortness call, for the most part. I can eliminate out the 5-1-4-3 possibility. But, 4♦ still seems to stand out. Sure -- you could object that 4♥ is the correct call because you only have the King-Queen and not the Ace, but you have the heart Ace. I don't care. If I cannot cuebid 4♦ here, because partner takes me for opening 1NT with a void, I quit. If he has the Ace of diamonds, he will expect that I have a really good reason for cuebidding without the Ace, and I have that.

 

4. Modern "Italian" Cuebidders

These folks might still have a stiff or void in clubs, as their control. Granted, they might also have K-x or K-x-x. No matter what they have, though, I again have no problem. I bid 4♦ as an Italian control bid.

[Fluffy]

Wow....I seem to be all alone, maybe justifiably so, in being concerned that 4♣ might be natural. How would/should we bid in response to 1N with Axxxx void AJxx KQJx?

 

Looks to me as if one might want to show the 5th spade, then suggest we consider diamonds, and when partner says 'no', check back for clubs.

 

4♣ might be natural, that is, if we had bid 3NT denying support in other suits.

 

But we have agreed spades already looking for a new fit at the 4 level to cope for an unlikelly shape where you don´t need a new fit . And sacrifying a normal cuebid on all the slam tries to acomplish that can´t be a good idea.

 

 

IMO now we have 2 choices: one is obvious: 4♦, we like our hand for slam so contribute with cheapest cuebid. but we have so many extras that taking control with 4NT also makes sense since if partner goes to keycard after 4♦ we cannot show ♦KQ to him.

 

 

A note to BILs: Taking control by the limited hand (1NT opener) is in general a bad idea because the one with the most info is the other hand. These might be one of the few exceptions.

[phil_20686]

I'm just bidding 4D for now, but I will definitely move past game almost no matter what partner does. I have a monster hand here. partner is mostly likely some 5431 14 count or so: AKxxx xx AJxx Kx looks routine. He might be 5-5, or he might have extra points, but at any rate he asked us to evaluate our hand for slam and we have 15 working points - more than he could reasonably expect. I think driving a slam now is not unreasonable, but I will just make the one move past game.

[Zelandakh]

My first thought is that I have a wtp 4♦ bid. Second thought is to wonder what 3NT from partner would have been instead of 4♣. Third thought is that I do not need to know until next round since 4♦ looks good regardless. If we happen to be playing Ken's style (where cuebidding partner's suit seems to generally show 2 of the top 3) then so much the better.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

My first thought is that I have a wtp 4♦ bid. Second thought is to wonder what 3NT from partner would have been instead of 4♣. Third thought is that I do not need to know until next round since 4♦ looks good regardless. If we happen to be playing Ken's style (where cuebidding partner's suit seems to generally show 2 of the top 3) then so much the better.

Fred G's style ( from his Serious 3NT blurb ) is:

-- Cuebid of "your" suit shows 2 of top 3, whereas

-- Cuebid of partner's suit shows 1 of top 3.

 

But 4♦ seems obvious.

[JLOGIC]

First thought: WTP 4D

 

Second thought: umm...4D?

 

Third thought: I wouldn't bid 4N and I wouldn't sign off...guess hat leaves 4D.

 

I do not understand the concept of this being natural. We showed a spade fit and were in a GF at 3S and partner started cuebidding. Seems pretty standard to me.

[mcphee]

3D set up a GF showing a second suit. 3S sets our suit and our hand has improved I would say. 4C should not be a suit as with 5-0-4-4 partner would advance with C rather than D. KQx is tremendous cover and I think it is essential to show this feature now, the H card can wait,I have no intention of passing 4S if this is partners next move. Sure looks to me like I hold the moose required.

[ahydra]

Agree with 4D - 3S was the right choice, setting trumps as spades, then 4C is a cuebid and you should now show your diamond control. If you play first-round-control cuebids then I guess 4H, but modern style (I believe) is first-and-second-round.

 

ahydra

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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You hold the north hand, and south, a good player with whom you play 2 or 3 times a year, throws this auction at you. What are your thoughts, and how do you want to continue?

With K Q x in partner's 2nd suit, I may just use the following structure to show a double-fit ( which I've shown before... with advance apologies to put this in the B/I forum :

 

1NT - 2transfer

2M - 3m

??

.. 3-of-cheapest new suit agrees the minor(m) w/4 or 5 cards; only 2 cards M ( Major )

.. 3M = 3 cards M, less than 4 cards m

.. [Edit] 2nd cheapest new suit = double-fit; 3 cards M AND 4 or 5 cards m... sweet!

.. 3NT = no fit for either

 

1NT - 2H!

2S - 3D

[Edit] 4C! ( double-fit, ♠ & ♦ ) - 4D! ( 6Ace-RKC, not including the ♦ Q -- ♦ Q would be rolled into the K-ask if it gets that far )

4H ( 0/3 ) - 4NT ( next non-trump step = ♠Q ask )

5D ( ♠Q and ♦Q ) - 6 or 7 ♦/♠/NT depending on whether ♠Q-ask was made missing 1 key card or not .

Edited January 24, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[Zelandakh]

After 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♦, I think it is better to play that 3♥ shows diamonds and 4♣ shows a double-fit than the reverse. Another option is to play 3♥ and 4♣ as cue bids agreeing diamonds and 4♥ to 5♣ as 6KCB responses with a double-fit. If you have space in the system to play second round transfers (easy with hearts but not so simple with spades) then you get alot more freedom for "cool" stuff here. (Yes, I know this does not have alot to do with the OP any more, sorry).

[Codo]

Wow, this is the standard for B/I nowadays? I am so happy to play crisscross in this situation, which works well enough...

 

I join the camp of the wtp 4 Diamonds for the reasons given: We are in a GF and SI, Spades are set as trump and partner made a cuebid with 4 Club. 4 heart would deny good diamonds in my world...

 

And I would not pass 4 Spade either. Yes my point count and my shape is ugly, but secondary honours in partners long suits and just two aces in the other suits looks too golden to stop.

Partner would bid 4 Spade over 4 Diamond with AKJxx,xx,AJxxx,x, wouldn't he?

[pooltuna]

Slam it!!! reasonable calls are 4NT and 6♦. Given a UI situation imo "Pass" would not be an LA

[billw55]

Agree 4♦. I prefer the understanding that cuebids below keycard may be first or second round controls.

 

I don't want to take captaincy with 4NT for two reasons. One, my hand is already in a pretty small box, but partner's hand is not yet; so let him remain captain. Two, I would rather partner do the keycarding so I can show him the trump queen, which from his standpoint could be the key to the grand.

[neilkaz]

4♦ for me as well.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

After 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♦, I think it is better to play that 3♥ shows diamonds and 4♣ shows a double-fit than the reverse. Another option is to play 3♥ and 4♣ as cue bids agreeing diamonds and 4♥ to 5♣ as 6KCB responses with a double-fit. If you have space in the system to play second round transfers (easy with hearts but not so simple with spades) then you get a lot more freedom for "cool" stuff here. (Yes, I know this does not have alot to do with the OP any more, sorry).

Thanks for the correction..

....I mis-posted... I did say "cheapest new suit" = agree minor, ♦... which would be 3H!.

 

Then, the 2nd cheapest ( or 4th suit ), 4C, becomes = double-fit .

 

( I corrected the post ).

Edited January 24, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[CSGibson]

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This was the auction at our table. Actual result on the hand was making 7. My own thought was that the NT opener should at the very least bid 4♦ planning to drive to slam over any response, and probably just ask for keycards, since every single honor card he has rates to be working (or, to put it another way, since partner is making slam tries without two outside aces, two Q's in key suits, and a K in a key suit).

 

It did not occur to me that 4♣ could be natural since spades was agreed at the 3 level.

[mikeh]

 

It did not occur to me that 4♣ could be natural since spades was agreed at the 3 level.

What puzzles me is just how any of the 'spades are agreed at the 3-level' players ever get to clubs on say Axxxx void AJxx KQJx opposite Qxx Axx KQx A10xx?

 

I guess the answer is: we don't.....we always find spades 3-2 with the K onside so we don't worry about this.....or, maybe, we don't but we never lose imps because our opps never know how to bid these hands either :D

 

It is common for expert partnerships to have agreements that allow finding a 4-4 side fit after a J2N response to 1M, because the 4-4 fit will often produce an extra trick compared to the 5-4 major suit....surely the same can be said when the major suit is 5-3 as well?

 

I guess I am definitely out of step here, but find it odd. Were I to agree that 3♠ seals our fate, then I also would cue the wtp 4♦, but I doubt that our choice of red suit cue is relevant.....the key decision, apart from what trump are, is that this is a slam hand.

[JLOGIC]

Finding the 4-4 fit is fine, but using a 3rd or 4th suit after showing 2 already as natural at the 4 level is strange to me in any auction. I mean, in the auction 1S-2H-2S-3D-3M all by us we might still have a 4-4 club fit if opener is 0544 but it's not like 4C is natural. Likewise if it goes 1S-2H-2S-3S we might still have a 4-4 minor suit fit and that might be the best spot to play, but 4m is still a cuebid. 4C natural seems to cater to a very unlikely scenario and takes away a common cuebid in this auction.