2C or 1NT?

[SimonFa]

I've just started playing 2/1 and haven't really settled on any version with partner although we have now both read Marty Bergen's Secret To Wining Bridge Number 2, 2/1 Game Forcing. From all my reading a 2/1 force can be made on a good 12+ hand otherwise bid forcing 1NT. So, how does this hand rate?

 

WvW. IMPS, partner deals:

 

1S (P) ?

 

♠ J5

♥ AQ5

♦ QJ9

♣ QT953

 

From my perspective the 5-card club suit looks reasonable and there are some good Ts and 9s but on the down side there lots of quacks.

 

In the end I went for 2C mainly because Marty implies any old 12 pointer will do but I wasn't sure.

 

Looking at the other tables there is about an even mix and all results ended in 4S+1 so it didn't really matter but I am interested in how others would evaluate this hand.

 

As always, thanks in advance,

 

Simon

[aguahombre]

Just a matter of preference, of course. But we happen to reserve 2/1 for G.F. hands. I suppose if one's opening bids have a higher bottom value than today's standard, this would be a G.F.

[Hanoi5]

I think you made a good evaluation of the present hand. A couple of nines and a ten, a five-card suit, a jack second in partner's five-card suit and 12 hcp, what else could you want.

 

However, bidding a forcing nt won't neccessarily keep you from reaching a game. You also have to take into account your partner's opening style, is it correct to force to game when a partner opens regularly with balanced eleven counts?

 

Finally the vulnerability. Being white you don't have to push so hard for games as when you're red.

[Fluffy]

I tend to set GF with all 12 counts, some exception is made for singleton in partner's suit, but with doubleton or more cards just go for game.

[Finch]

There are two hand types where you make a 2/1.

 

The first, and most common, is when you have enough high card strength that you want to insist on playing in game opposite anything your partner thinks is worth an opening bid. Game might not make/might be poor if the hands don't fit well, but this is in the category of "all the field will bid game". Playing any sort of 'standard' opening bid style, this includes basically all hands with 14 or more HCP (unless they are suitable for some other call such as a forcing raise). We'll come back to the 11/12/13-counts later.

 

The second is where you don't really have game forcing high card values, but you have a hand with a lot of power opposite the right cards, that will be very difficult to bid if you start with 1NT. Typical hands are big 2-suiters (e.g. I would respond 2H with x AKJxxx Qxxxxx -) or 3-card support for partner's major and a lot of shape e.g. KQx - AJ109xx xxxx. My two examples are extreme ones where I think everyone would make a 2/1, you have to draw your own line. For example, a poster on rgb suggested he would respond with a forcing 1NT on a hand with KQJ10xxxxx (9 of them) clubs and another ace, because that's not strong enough in HCP for a 2/1. I doubt many people agree with him, but what about 7 clubs and an ace? 8 and a king?

 

When it comes to the 'minimum opening bid' type hands with 11-13 HCP, it's not really a question of the 'right' call, it's a matter of your opening bid style. I bet Fluffy's partner doesn't open all balanced 11s, while our agreement is to open all 5332s with a 5-card major that aren't horrible. So AQxxx Axx 10xx Jx is a normal opening bid for us - so much so that opposite 2NT game forcing spade raise, it would not sign off in 4S. Opposite that sort of hand, you don't want to drive to game on a normal looking 12-count such as the one you started the thread with.

 

The other consideration is what sort of hands with 6 spades open at the 1-level. If you open most 10-counts with a 6-card suit 1S (as we do), then you can't force to game on this hand opposite. If you would open AQ10xxx Kxx x Jxx a (maximum) weak 2S, then your 1-level openings are somewhat stronger and you can force to game consequently lighter.

 

The hand you posted looks to me like a 1NT response, not a 2/1. Perhaps one way to evaluate this sort of balanced hand is to say 'if I opened this a weak NT, would I accept if partner invited?'

[mgoetze]

I disagree with Hanoi5 - this is a pretty horrible 12 count with lots of quacks and almost all the points outside your long suit. I downgrade this to an "invitational hand with clubs". There are different ways to bid this hand-type depending on which flavour of 2/1 you play, including but not necessarily limited to

• Bid 2♣ and rebid 3♣. Yes, there is a style of 2/1 where a 2/1 is game-forcing unless you rebid your minor.
  
• Bid a forcing 1NT and then rebid 3♣.
  
• Jump to 3♣ directly (in modern styles where 1NT is not absolutely forcing).
  

[Phil]

I would respond 1N.

[aguahombre]

I disagree with Hanoi5 - this is a pretty horrible 12 count with lots of quacks and almost all the points outside your long suit. I downgrade this to an "invitational hand with clubs". There are different ways to bid this hand-type depending on which flavour of 2/1 you play, including but not necessarily limited to

• Bid 2♣ and rebid 3♣. Yes, there is a style of 2/1 where a 2/1 is game-forcing unless you rebid your minor.
  
• Bid a forcing 1NT and then rebid 3♣.
  
• Jump to 3♣ directly (in modern styles where 1NT is not absolutely forcing).
  

Yes, except the hand in the OP is 2-3-3-5, which eliminates all those choices which should be reserved for 6-card club suits with invite values according to style.

 

The OP hand is 1NT then 2NT.

[the hog]

This is a 1NT bid, followed by an invitational 2NT. (Please do not bid 3C on this hand after 1NT. That is really terrible).

[mgoetze]

Oh. It looked twice as long as the other suits in my font. :) In that case treat it as a balanced invite, yes.

[Statto]

I usually only play 2/1 in a strong ♣ context, which makes things a little easier, as the forcing 1NT is now 8-12 rather than 6-12, and opener is limited, so there's less temptation to shade a GF hand.

 

We might hear on the grapevine that the 6-12 1NT range is a weakness of 2/1, but that should not deter us from using the system properly.

 

With the OP hand, I've flattish shape, only 2 card ♠ support, and by no means certain of game. I'd bid 1NT to find out more...

[wank]

unless you're opening 1M particularly lightly i think it's a little pathetic to respond 1NT on this (and i have a reputation as a very conservative bidder). many of the people on the forums do play an aggressive opening style which often skews the responses - if your partner opens light you need a little more to make a 2/1.

 

your honour combinations are fine. all this talk of queens and jacks is a little overblown - qxx or jxx would be a crappy holiding. qj9 is fine. jx in partner's suit is fine. qt9xx is a decent suit for 3NT which is your most likely contract.

[pooltuna]

you need a Meckwell Back Brace to stiffen your spine! 2♣

[aguahombre]

you need a Meckwell Back Brace to stiffen your spine! 2♣

I prefer my evaluation methods, coupled with our opening bid agreements. But, perhaps choosing an action based on my current testy level should be considered.

[Free]

2♣

[MrAce]

% 100 2 ♣ at imps and i think no one open as light as we do.

[johnu]

Whether your partner opens an average 11 or less HCP hand should determine whether you bid 1NT or 2 clubs. I ran several 200 deal simulations on Dealmaster Pro. Opposite a semi balanced (5442, 5332, 6322) 11 HCP, 3NT made 30% and 4S made only 8%. A little surprising 4S was so poor but you will be in a 5-2 fit with lots of quacks, and no real ruffing values. Opposite an unbalanced 11 HCP opener, 3NT went up to 37% and 4S went all the way up to 34%. There's some variance in these numbers since I only ran 200 deals but it should give you a reasonable approximation.

 

As you noted, responding 1NT does not mean you won't get to game if partner has a decent hand, but responding 2 clubs means you will alway get to game, no matter how poor.

 

Opposite 12 HCP, the percentage of games making goes over 50%.

 

Points aren't everything, but with only 23 combined HCP opposite an 11 count and your hand beinq quack heavy should nudge you to a conservative 1NT if partner frequently opens light.

[Codo]

Listen to Frances. This is always a good advice, but here, her answer is just superb.

 

Whether you bid 2 ♣ (I would) or 1 NT depends on your opening style and your playing abilities. This hand is realy borderline.

And I agree with Wank, that this is a nice 12count.

[whereagles]

1NT+2NT seems to fit this hand just nice, especially if your pard tends to accept invites on any excuse.

 

A 2/1 GF is also fine. Reason: we're sort of formatted from suit play into liking aces and kings better than quacks, but for NT play the quacks do carry their full HCP value.

[Xiaolongnu]

Totally agree with Frances and those who agree with her. Agreements, implicit agreements, partnership experience and styles are all important in evaluating such situations.

 

Having said that, assuming (theoretically) that agreements are neutral, I am inclined to bid 1NT intending to rebid 2NT or 3NT opposite 2S rebid.

 

1. The hand has soft values and good spots in other words so called quacks that are better off in NT than in suit.

2. Since 1NT is forcing, I would consider 2♣ to be indicative of those hands where the club suit is better quality, like a good 5 carder. A somewhat isomorphic argument. Is the club suit good enough for an overcall, assuming you have enough side suit values to back you up? I do not think so, or at least, I would think twice about it.

3. Also, by bidding 1NT partner might be more inclined to play you for a flattish hand rather than a distributional hand, which is the case here.

4. The AQ of ♥ and QJ9 of ♦ makes it more advantageous to hog the contract in 3NT, which is most likely the final contract unless partner is really strong.

[jh51]

A couple of reasons I would bid 1NT:

 

1. There are 5 quacks and 1 Ace. Marty's stuff on hand evaluation would say that you should downgrade this - it is probably worth only about 11 points
   
2. Losers: This is a 7 loser hand. LTC says that is enough to invite, not force to game, opposite an opening hand.
   

[whereagles]

Which version of LTC are you thinking of? Mine says GF from 7 losers.

[jh51]

Which version of LTC are you thinking of? Mine says GF from 7 losers.

You are correct. I was remembering incorrectly. But, upon rereading what I have recently read about LTC, I was reminded that it is not to be used until you have a fit. Since not fit has been found, my second point should be disregarded.

[MrAce]

Contradicting with my own previous post, KnR says this hand worths 10.55

 

I think we 2♣ bidders should admit that we are way off on this one (at least i do) :lol: