Preempt over Polish club

[antonylee]

I manage this by burying the club suit. After 1♣ - 1♦, 1♥ is 18-20 any or 23+ balanced, 1♠ is 18+ 3-suited or any unbalanced game force, 1NT 15-17 balanced, and 2♣ 15-17 natural. That means I have to play the same system as over a 2♣ opening even for 15-17 point hands. This is surely not everyone's cup of tea!

I would be interested in knowing how you unwind the various hand types over 1♣!-1♦!-1M!, could you explain this? Thanks in advance.

[hrothgar]

Not sure its worth trying to square the circle, but:

 

Is it possible the the preferred opening bid with minimum balanced hands with 4-4 in the minors has changed over time?

 

As I mentioned before, I know Matula's write up of Polish Club pretty well - always preferred it to this WJ2000 stuff - however, I also acknowledge that this is a date treatment. Perhaps styles have changed in recent years...

[mycroft]

Straube, from the point of view of an opponent (I've never found a partner wanting to play PC, so I haven't put in the trouble to learn it beyond be absolute basics), I think that the Polish 1C and Precision 1C do similar things and for similar reasons - to get a bunch of hands out of non-1C auctions.

 

Hrothgar is famous for saying "I just hope to break even with my (strong) 1C auctions". I tend to agree with that. I get it back when I open 1M. I get some of it back when I open 1 nebulous diamond, 1NT, 2m, ... all of which benefit from the limited nature of the hand.

 

However, the Precision club removal of hands has many faults - 1D is almost unplayable as diamonds (in fact, some play it as 0+); the limited range of all bid - 11-15, or 10-15, or even 9-15 - gives away a lot of information when defending or declaring - including whether to decide to defend or continue to compete - benefit when your side uses it, downside when they do. Also, both 2m calls in Precision are effectively "bolted on to make it work" - surely the standard 3-suited Precision 2D can't be the best use of that bid, for instance (which is why some players play a 0+ 1D), 2C 6+ works best when it's a preempt (and worst when we've preempted partner), and 2C 6+ or 5C4M is even less playable than putting those hands into 1NT or 1D... Now look at the strong club itself. Opening 1C means "please compete with any shape, opponents, and don't worry about missing game." Sure, sometimes they go overboard and you can catch them, but the rest of the time you're in the hole and digging.

 

Polish Club takes other hands out of the mix and throws them in the catchall 1C opener. 1D is real - in fact, it seems that partner is going to assume you play 5cD. Nice. 2D is available for whatever reason, too. Nice. 2C is back to "big enough that I'm happy to preempt ourselves out of the 1 level", while the moderate long club hands are back nice and low. Nice. Okay, so we have to raise the limit of the non-1C bids some more - 11-18 or so - and that does mean that we now can't just have 2 ranges - but it's still helpful, and it doesn't give as much information away to opponents. And now, we have competing against the PC itself. My reading is that one should assume the opener has a weak NT and bid from there. That works - and certainly causes a problem for responder when she's not sure opener has a weak NT, and causes the "have to pass to show the WNT" issue as well. But what it does do is give pretty fair sailing when opener has the big hand - because it's not going to hit anywhere near as much destructive competition as the Precision Club (and it's a lot more limited, too - good 18-22 or so).

 

I'm guessing it's swings and roundabouts - there are hands that really suck in PC, as there are in Precision, 2/1, K/S,... There are hands that are so much easier in PC than anything else that it feels like stealing, I'm sure.

[antonylee]

2D is available for whatever reason, too.

Actually, anyone has a good idea of a GCC-legal (erk) use of that bid in a PC framework? Of course a classic weak two works, but more originality is welcome :-)

 

2C is back to "big enough that I'm happy to preempt ourselves out of the 1 level"

I assume this means the version of PC you learnt has a strong 2♣? At least it seems that now the usual treatment is Precision (WJ), 6♣ or 5♣4M -- or, as mentioned in some other thread, some artificial preempt.

 

certainly causes a problem for responder when she's not sure opener has a weak NT, and causes the "have to pass to show the WNT" issue as well.

The pass with WNT is a problem, though you can make the agreement that a T/O X doesn't show extras (so far this has proved helpful and hasn't bitten us), mitigating the problem. As for responder not sure of whether opener has a WNT or not, say after 1♣-(some overcall), NFBs (or better, Rubensohl) at the 2-level (perhaps transfers at the 3-level as well -- see earlier in the thread) works fine: responder places the contract with his 5-card suit (assuming a WNT) with a limited hand, and if opener has extras he will be happy to 1/ show them and 2/ use that extra information (as mentioned before by previous posters).

[Zelandakh]

I would be interested in knowing how you unwind the various hand types over 1♣!-1♦!-1M!, could you explain this? Thanks in advance.

 

After 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ is a relay that is used > 90% of the time. Then

 

1NT = 18-20 balanced

2any suit= 18-20 and 5+ suit

2NT = 23-24 balanced

3♣/♦/♥ = 27-28 balanced with ♥/♠/neither respectively

 

 

After 1♣ - 1♦; 1♠,

 

1NT is a positive (~6-8), then 2♣ is 3-suited (with relays), 2♦♥♠ natural GF and 2NT clubs GF;

2♣ is a double negative (~0-2). Then 2♦ is 3-suited (with scramble), 2♥♠ natural GF, 2NT clubs GF, 3♣ diamonds GF;

2♦ is in-between (~3-5) with rebids 2♥♠ natural GF, 2NT 3-suited (relays on), 3♣♦ natural GF

 

Essentially the 1♥ sequences are Kokish but with the new suit variant showing 18-20 instead of hearts. You are often worse placed than standard here when holding reversing shape but the fact that Responder is limited means that this is manageable (with a couple of tricks).

 

The system after 1♠ has evolved to be something similar to the familar 1st step positive, 2nd step double negative that I played for a while over a strong 2♣ opener. The nice part about these sequences is that you are never(*) worse off than against natural systems and usually better off. It would probably be possible to implement relays here too but I find natural works well enough and am unwilling to construct something unique for these hands.

 

[* obviously if they preempt over 1♣ you are worse off than the same preempt over a 2♣ opening.]

 

To bring this (slightly) back towards the topic, although the system looks alot like PC and is quite handy in some respects for a quick opening bid comparison, it actually plays completely differently in reality. If you want to play PC on BBO then you really need to learn some basic Polish and then you can easily join a wj table. It is probably not worth learning it for face-to-face play in America or if you are not willing to make an effort with the Polish language.