Simple overcalls.

[han]

I see experts making simple overcalls with better and better hands. When is a hand too good and should you double?

 

For example, you hold x AKJ10xx AKxx Kx, and RHO opens 1C. Do you overcall 1H or double first? Does the vulnerability and/or form of scoring matter? What is the smallest change that makes you change your mind?

[luke warm]

i'm not an expert, but i double first when i want to strongly suggest game... i overcall when i need an opening hand or better from partner...

 

so i double when 5+ and a semblance of a fit might make game, i bid if i need 11, 12

[jtfanclub]

Not an expert...what am I even doing here?

 

But I think there's some merit to the idea that, just as you borrow a king in the balancing seat, you give away a king if you're overcalling across a passed hand. The hand that wouldn't dare jump overcall across an unpassed hand for fear of missing game may have no chance of game across a passed one. Hands where you want to interefere to keep them from their part score contract may now push them into game. And strong balanced hands are often better off passing and not letting the opponents know what's happening rather than bidding because you may own the hand.

 

It's just a trend I've been noticing, which I've posted about far too much. People are opening hands weaker and weaker, and as a result IMHO responses, and overcalls across passed hands, need to be stronger.

 

So is that what's actually happening here? Or are they overcalling with that hand second seat and I've just put my foot in my mouth as usual?

 

so i double when 5+ and a semblance of a fit might make game, i bid if i need 11, 12

 

But if you know your partner would never have passed with 12, or even a decent 11, maybe your count for your bid should change.

[inquiry]

i bid my suits when I have them, I double when I don't. This is part of the shape-first theory of biddign that has been discussed in several threads the last couple fo days.

 

It use to be, 16+hcp or somewhere around there was "Too strong" to overcall, so you doubled then bid your suit. Use to be some fairly weak 4441 hand with stiff in their suit could not be bid with double (as you need some significant values). Now days, many experts double on less and overcall on more... the idea, shape first, and then catch up later on pooints...

 

Ben

[Flame]

The change is total tricks thory, which expain that hcp doesnt matter as shape in competitve bidding.

I am tryign to strech my overcalls but there is a limit, the limit is different at the level bid and the vul, bidding an overcall at the 2 level when vul, im expected to have a minimum of 14 hcp, so oviosly having 18-19 wont be too much, but i will not overcall with 19 hcp on the 1 level.

[han]

i bid my suits when I have them, I double when I don't. This is part of the shape-first theory of biddign that has been discussed in several threads the last couple fo days.

 

It use to be, 16+hcp or somewhere around there was "Too strong" to overcall, so you doubled then bid your suit. Use to be some fairly weak 4441 hand with stiff in their suit could not be bid with double (as you need some significant values). Now days, many experts double on less and overcall on more... the idea, shape first, and then catch up later on pooints...

 

Ben

This is exactly what I thought, but how far does one go with this theory? Is there no hand to strong for overcalling?

[han]

The change is total tricks thory, which expain that hcp doesnt matter as shape in competitve bidding.

I am tryign to strech my overcalls but there is a limit, the limit is different at the level bid and the vul, bidding an overcall at the 2 level when vul, im expected to have a minimum of 14 hcp, so oviosly having 18-19 wont be too much, but i will not overcall with 19 hcp on the 1 level.

One could argue that a 1H overcall is less likely to get passed out...

[Flame]

The change is total tricks thory, which expain that hcp doesnt matter as shape in competitve bidding.

I am tryign to strech my overcalls but there is a limit, the limit is different at the level bid and the vul, bidding an overcall at the 2 level when vul, im expected to have a minimum of 14 hcp, so oviosly having 18-19 wont be too much, but i will not overcall with 19 hcp on the 1 level.

One could argue that a 1H overcall is less likely to get passed out...

Maybe but im not sure.

If both 1h and 2c has no upper limit then ppl will not be afraid to let you play in 1h.

[luke warm]

But if you know your partner would never have passed with 12, or even a decent 11, maybe your count for your bid should change.

how can i possibly know this? i can't tell you how often my partner has passed the hand you describe, often an even better hand... besides, it's not all about points... it's more about fit and controls

[jtfanclub]

how can i possibly know this? i can't tell you how often my partner has passed the hand you describe

 

That kind of depends upon the system you're playing, doesn't it? I know lots of people who play a 10-12 NT and don't pass any 11 counts. If you are playing such a system, it makes sense to change your overcalls to match...when your partner has passed.

 

besides, it's not all about points... it's more about fit and controls

 

Doesn't matter. Your partner will have more controls on the average with an unpassed hand than a passed one, and the upper limit is higher. Therefore, it makes sense to modify your overcalls to take this into account.

[luke warm]

ok jt, whatever you say

[flytoox]

with this hand I will dbl first, if pd jump to 4S i may regret. If vul. is red vs white, I would prefer jump overcall to show this kind hand.

 

When should you dbl then bid ur suit? I think the most important is not overall highcard but ur playing strength. This hand has too good playing strength to overcall. If heart is AJxxxx and the whole hand is x, AJxxxx, KQx, AKx, then I will start with a overcall.

[mikestar]

i bid my suits when I have them, I double when I don't. This is part of the shape-first theory of biddign that has been discussed in several threads the last couple fo days.

 

It use to be, 16+hcp or somewhere around there was "Too strong" to overcall, so you doubled then bid  your suit. Use to be some fairly weak 4441 hand with stiff in their suit could not be bid with double (as you need some significant values).  Now days, many experts double on less and overcall on more... the idea, shape first, and then catch up later on pooints...

 

Ben

This is exactly what I thought, but how far does one go with this theory? Is there no hand to strong for overcalling?

AKQTxxx x AKx Ax is self evidently too strong for an overcall--it about even money for 4S opposite 0 points and a void. (Though if the bidding excludes us having a slam, a direct 4S ostensibly prempitve is a better way to bid this hand than double.)

 

Typically I won't overcall on a three loser hand and tend not to on a four loser hand if my suit is good.

[mila85]

1)

(1♥)-?

AKxxxx x Axx Axx

I would bid dbl.

 

2)

(1♠)-?

x AKxxxx Axx Axx

I would bid 2♥.

 

I must dbl. in case 1) because my overcalls at 1st level can be very weak and If I bid 1♠ we can miss a game because of partner's fear of overbidding.

In case 2) if I double I will often bid over 2 or 3 ♠ next round. Very hard... In case 1) I have higher suit so bidding over 2 or 3 ♥ is much easier.

If I was vuln. and opps nonvul. I would bid 2♠ in case 1).

[Flame]

1)

(1♥)-?

AKxxxx x Axx Axx

I would bid dbl.

 

2)

(1♠)-?

x AKxxxx Axx Axx

I would bid 2♥.

 

I must dbl. in case 1) because my overcalls at 1st level can be very weak and If I bid 1♠ we can miss a game because of partner's fear of overbidding.

In case 2) if I double I will often bid over 2 or 3 ♠ next round. Very hard... In case 1) I have higher suit so bidding over 2 or 3 ♥ is much easier.

If I was vuln. and opps nonvul. I would bid 2♠ in case 1).

To make a game with this hand you need either support for 4H or pretty good hand to make 3nt. If you can count on partner to support you with quite weak hards you wont have much probelm with 1h.

Sure you might miss a game but not too many of them.

[whereagles]

For example, you hold x AKJ10xx AKxx Kx, and RHO opens 1C. Do you overcall 1H or double first? Does the vulnerability and/or form of scoring matter?

With this hand you can probably double if the opening was 1C. You're so strong that it's very unlikely it will go

 

(1C) dbl (1S) pass

(4S)

 

even when opps are NV and you V. However, if the opening had been 1S, then there's a real danger that it will go

 

(1S) dbl (4S) pass

pass ??

 

In this case it's probably better to overcall 2H. Then you could double 4S less nervously than if you had doubled the first place. If opps are V vs NV, I'd double, as they will be less prompt to blast at 4S.

[Rebound]

There is one thing I suggest you consider when making a low level takeout double. It may sound obvious, but I don't think it is, at least not to me. That is, don't double for takeout if you don't want it left in. Sorry if this seems like basic bridge, but I have run into many who have questionable understanding of the takeout double.

 

Ages ago, I picked up a monster hand with a long solid heart suit (7 or 8 to the AKQJ i think) and about 19 HCP. After RHO opened 1 spade and I doubled, it went P-P-P (missing heart slam). I should have known partner might have spades. I don't know who of you might make the same error, but I chalked it up to my own peculiar brand of dumbness. As a result, I have learned that even some very strong hands may need to be overcalled with rather than doubling. Of course, I realized later that with such a strong hand, some other call should be made anyway, but even somewhat weaker hands but still normally considered strong enough for a dbl/rebid you may wish to consider, "will I be happy if partner passes the double?"

[HeartA]

There is one thing I suggest you consider when making a low level takeout double. It may sound obvious, but I don't think it is, at least not to me. That is, don't double for takeout if you don't want it left in. Sorry if this seems like basic bridge, but I have run into many who have questionable understanding of the takeout double.

 

Ages ago, I picked up a monster hand with a long solid heart suit (7 or 8 to the AKQJ i think) and about 19 HCP. After RHO opened 1 spade and I doubled, it went P-P-P (missing heart slam). I should have known partner might have spades. I don't know who of you might make the same error, but I chalked it up to my own peculiar brand of dumbness. As a result, I have learned that even some very strong hands may need to be overcalled with rather than doubling. Of course, I realized later that with such a strong hand, some other call should be made anyway, but even somewhat weaker hands but still normally considered strong enough for a dbl/rebid you may wish to consider, "will I be happy if partner passes the double?"

When you hold a strong hand and there is strong slam potential, and you don't want your pd to convert your dbl to penalty, you better cue-bid which pd might take as Michaels though. To simply overcall would make it worse than dbl would do, because it could be passed out (very likely given ur strong holding and opp being able to open). And you would get less score than dbl opp's opening.

[Fluffy]

X+ suit only in 3 situations:

 

With a hand I would open old strong 2 (7card suit or very good 6)

With a 5431 with 5M, 19+ since I have at leeast support on the suit partner bids :P.

With any (12+) 5431 with long minor since helps finding fit on the majors.

 

Said these I think the hand you posted (x AKJ10xx AKxx Kx) is enough to double, but probably the least possible, and still just bidding 1♥ looks good to me.

[nikos59]

For what it is worth, yesterday, Round 3 Board 18 of the Olympiad,

South players were holding

 

--

A 10

K Q 9 8 7 6 5 3

A K 7

 

vulnerable against not. Suppose that East, dealer, opens 1C.

What now?

 

Three out of four experts that were in this situation and whose

match was transmitted by BBO or elsewhere bid a simple

1D, including Zia. (I was sure about Zia because he has done

this repeatedly).

 

Note that this is probably a hand where one would open with

a game-forcing bid, no? On the other hand, since it contains

only 16 HCPs and no spades at all, it is hardly possible that

1D will be passed out. In fact, the bidding usually stopped

at 6D or 6S by EW.

 

nikos

[whereagles]

I would double that one. The worst that can happen is

 

(1C) dbl (2S weak) pass

(4S)

 

but now I have a clear 5D bid.

[han]

I disagree. Far worse (and just as likely) is that the auction proceeds (1C)-Dbl-(3C)-4S-(pass)-??. You would probably still bid 5D, but this auction is completely out of control.

[mr1303]

The biggest danger with these hands is not opps finding a spade fit but your partner assuming there is one.

 

I'm overcalling on all of them, as I respect my partners too much to do this to them

[HeartA]

I disagree. Far worse (and just as likely) is that the auction proceeds (1C)-Dbl-(3C)-4S-(pass)-??. You would probably still bid 5D, but this auction is completely out of control.

Why out of control? To dbl and then bid a suit simply shows a strong one suiter. It doesn't guarantee any support for other suits. If pd has useful cards, he is welcome to bid on, otherwise, he has to pass.

[joker_gib]

When you are pretty sure that it wouldn't be passed out, it is always good to introduce your suit !

 

Further cue bids and TO doubles can help you to tell your strength later !

 

I would also bid 1♦ (don't want my partner to come with ♠ at a high level !!)