1S-2D showing hearts

[straube]

Many months ago I posted our 1S-2D bid which shows hearts and a GI hand and I got a lot of good suggestions regarding this. I'd like to expand the use to include hands with 5+ hcps and 6 hearts to hands that plan to game force but aren't very interested in slam. 1S-2C is a GF relay bid btw.

 

1S-2D

.....2H-other, misfitting

.....2S-6 spades, most strengths

.....2N-max, 2 hearts

.....3m-max, 5/5

.....3H-min, 3 hearts

.....3S-6 spades, very max

.....splinters?

 

Anyone like these rebids? How would responder continue? I'd like to make it possible for both/either opener or responder to show a second 5-cd suit and be able to play in it at the 3-level. I'd also like to have responder be able to show hearts and then rebid 2S or 2N to show a generic invitation to game.

[awm]

What's wrong with the following simple structure for opener's rebids:

 

2♥ = 0-2♥ not qualified for higher bids, or 3♥ in a min balanced hand

2♠ = very short hearts, 6+♠, not enough for 3♠

2N/3m = same hand that bids these over 1♠-1NT, with the additional inference of less than 3♥

3♥ = 3♥ and not a balanced min, or 4♥ with a very min/flat hand

3♠ = same as 1♠-1NT-3♠, but also denies 3♥

4m = splinter with 4(+)♥

 

After 1♠-2♦-2♥ or 1♠-2♦-2♠, basically all non-pass bids are natural and invitational. Normally 51(43) types bid 2NT, 5/5 for bidding 3m, 2♠ shows doubleton.

After 1♠-2♦-2N/3m/3♠, basically same as if you started 1♠-1N(forcing) and the same rebid, except that there is no need to show a heart suit unless 6+ and good quality.

[straube]

What's wrong with the following simple structure for opener's rebids:

 

2♥ = 0-2♥ not qualified for higher bids, or 3♥ in a min balanced hand

2♠ = very short hearts, 6+♠, not enough for 3♠

2N/3m = same hand that bids these over 1♠-1NT, with the additional inference of less than 3♥

3♥ = 3♥ and not a balanced min, or 4♥ with a very min/flat hand

3♠ = same as 1♠-1NT-3♠, but also denies 3♥

4m = splinter with 4(+)♥

 

After 1♠-2♦-2♥ or 1♠-2♦-2♠, basically all non-pass bids are natural and invitational. Normally 51(43) types bid 2NT, 5/5 for bidding 3m, 2♠ shows doubleton.

After 1♠-2♦-2N/3m/3♠, basically same as if you started 1♠-1N(forcing) and the same rebid, except that there is no need to show a heart suit unless 6+ and good quality.

 

I like it. After 1S-1N, 2N shows 6S/5m and 3m shows 5S/6m...both medium+ hands.

 

So we'll let opener show 6/5 or 5/6 but responder can show a 5/5.

[straube]

So I'm expanding this topic a bit for anyone who wants to contribute. We've been using 1S-2C as an artificial GF.

Is it legal to use it as an artificial bid promising invitational+?

 

So 1S-2C,

.....2D-bal, 4+C or 5+D

.....2H-6+ spades, SS

.....2S-4 diamonds

.....2N-5 hearts

.....etc-4 hearts

 

and now we break relay when possible. E.g. 1S-2C, 2H-3S is nf

 

Then...

 

1S-

.....2D-6+ hearts or 5+ only GI+, not serious about slam

.....2H-constructive+ raise with 3 trump

.....2S-raise

.....2N-LR+ with 4 trump

.....3m-weak jump shift

.....3H-mixed raise

.....3S-weak

.....3N-heart splinter

.....4m-splinters

.....4M-to play

[awm]

Is it legal: on the mid-chart it should be.

Is it a good idea: unclear; you will have some trouble reaching a playable spot on the invites since opener may zoom past 2N without a Max or a fit. Also competition is more of an issue.

[straube]

That's true. I'm thinking the GI hands would only be in a range of something less than a point. We normally force game on a misfitting 14 ct. So we'd throw a medium/good 13 ct now into 2C and not worry if we can't break relay.

 

I like that this structure gets rid of the WJS hands. A negative for what we do is we can't show a GI hand with a minor unless partner takes a rebid after 1N, but it's also nice that these hands can change direction. Like if I have xx xxx Ax AKxxxx I can respond 1N and raise a spade rebid, etc.

 

I think, too, that we're making more use of our 2L responses than 2/1 GF.

[wclass___]

I see you have discarded 1N GF relay, i think it is a good decision.

 

I have stated this before and i am still sure that it is better to add 5431 5440 hands to 2♠ and make 2♥ as promising 2-3.

 

--Your 2♥ can contain very different hands. It could be 5431 11 counts as well as 5422 14 counts. Responder is never sure if we are in misfit or partner has 2♥, which is clearly not that bad. (Your current structure concentrates on distinguishing between 5/6♠+ hands, while i believe it is more important to distinguish between 1/2♥.) With 6♠2♥ decision should be involved, but generally weaker hands tends towards 2♠, stronger hands - to 2♥.

 

Smaller disadvantages.

 

-Have to bid at 3rd level with minimal hands with 3♥.

-Responder will always bid 2♠ with 5♥2♠.

 

Good luck.

[straube]

I see you have discarded 1N GF relay, i think it is a good decision.

 

I have stated this before and i am still sure that it is better to add 5431 5440 hands to 2♠ and make 2♥ as promising 2-3.

 

--Your 2♥ can contain very different hands. It could be 5431 11 counts as well as 5422 14 counts. Responder is never sure if we are in misfit or partner has 2♥, which is clearly not that bad. (Your current structure concentrates on distinguishing between 5/6♠+ hands, while i believe it is more important to distinguish between 1/2♥.) With 6♠2♥ decision should be involved, but generally weaker hands tends towards 2♠, stronger hands - to 2♥.

 

Smaller disadvantages.

 

-Have to bid at 3rd level with minimal hands with 3♥.

-Responder will always bid 2♠ with 5♥2♠.

 

Good luck.

 

I don't think it's right to move past 2H with short hearts unless we have someplace better to offer. Responder is only going to pass 2H when he has a weak hand with six hearts. I'd rather chance a 6-0 than a 5-0.

[wclass___]

Responder is only going to pass 2H when he has a weak hand with six hearts. I'd rather chance a 6-0 than a 5-0.

What do you do with 5♥0-1♠... bid 2♠? Play 5-1 5-0 ♠instead of 5-2♥?

 

From your comment above it is clear to me that you never pass with 5♥ because you said that he ''is going to pass only if''. Also you used 5-0 argument in your favor.

 

Just wonder if you bid 2♠ or 3m with 5♥0-1♠ and how it works?

[awm]

Presumably he responds 1nt to the opening if he has five hearts and less than invite. This might miss a 5-3 fit if opener is 53(32) and it goes 1s-1n-pass but there are other times 1nt is best, and if it goes 1s-1n-2m-2h partner will know hearts are just five long and remove with 0-1h.

[straube]

Presumably he responds 1nt to the opening if he has five hearts and less than invite. This might miss a 5-3 fit if opener is 53(32) and it goes 1s-1n-pass but there are other times 1nt is best, and if it goes 1s-1n-2m-2h partner will know hearts are just five long and remove with 0-1h.

 

Hadn't even thought of that, but that's a really nice plus to playing this way.

 

I've looked at just a few hands, but I'm noticing a significantly higher use of 2C, 2D, and 2H compared to 2/1 GF. Also, so many of our auctions go 1S-4S now that we would otherwise use 2/1s significantly less than standard systems.

[Fluffy]

We are playing some gadget with crossed strenght ranges:

 

1♠-2♥ is a good 2♠ raise (8-10 normally) or exactly invitational strenght in hearts (Seldom happens). Partner then bids 2♠ normally unless he has an interesting hand to play game opposite a good raise in spades.

 

1♠-2♦ is a weak hand with hearts , or a 10-12 raise in spades, again aprtner tends to bid 2♥ here unless he has heart support.

 

GF hands just go through GF relay.

 

This is probably so ilegal for you, I supose if I ever play this in USA I might go to jail or something :P

 

 

 

[olien]

Is it legal: on the mid-chart it should be....

 

Do you mean the 1♠-2♦ bid? or the 1M-2♣ bid? I don't think the latter is legal on the ACBL mid-chart (which the OP is wanting to play as INV+ relay), then I believe you're incorrect.

 

I referred to the ACBL Mid-Chart, item #2 which states:

"2. Relay (tell me more) systems that promise game-forcing values."

are allowed.

 

Not sure about 1♠-2♦ though; there's no specific reference to it, however the chart conspicuously states:

"**unless specifically listed below, and (for 6-20) on the ACBL

Defense Database site, methods are disallowed**"

 

and #7 on the general convention chart (which I believe this section would apply to the mid-chart, but I'm unsure, just trying to be helpful hints at 1S-2♦ NOT being legal. It states (under allowed):

 

"7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP),

forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher. (For this

classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a

range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five cards – See #7 under

DISALLOWED.)"

 

Hope this helps out with answering legality questions.

[awm]

The mid-chart states under allowed:

 

3. All other constructive rebids and responses are permitted

 

So any response scheme to your opening bids that promises constructive values is fine. This includes 2♦ showing 6+♥ constructive or 5+♥ invitational. It also includes 2♣ artificial invitational or better. There is an exception for "relay systems that are not game forcing" (which are not allowed) but 2♣ in this method is not technically a relay (it gives substantial information about responder's hand, it is not the cheapest call, it does not force opener to make any particular call). There is also no suggestion that a non-game-forcing sequence of relays will ever occur in this method.

[olien]

The mid-chart states under allowed:

 

3. All other constructive rebids and responses are permitted

 

So any response scheme to your opening bids that promises constructive values is fine. This includes 2♦ showing 6+♥ constructive or 5+♥ invitational. It also includes 2♣ artificial invitational or better. There is an exception for "relay systems that are not game forcing" (which are not allowed) but 2♣ in this method is not technically a relay (it gives substantial information about responder's hand, it is not the cheapest call, it does not force opener to make any particular call). There is also no suggestion that a non-game-forcing sequence of relays will ever occur in this method.

 

I guess I'm more conservative in my interpretation. No hard feelings.

[straube]

I agree with Adam. The first bid is constructive. We might be able to relay once after that (because we are arguing that the first bid is not a relay) but not twice or it would be a sequence of relays. OTOH, I think responder will always decline to relay if he has an invitational only hand.

[straube]

We are playing some gadget with crossed strenght ranges:

 

1♠-2♥ is a good 2♠ raise (8-10 normally) or exactly invitational strenght in hearts (Seldom happens). Partner then bids 2♠ normally unless he has an interesting hand to play game opposite a good raise in spades.

 

1♠-2♦ is a weak hand with hearts , or a 10-12 raise in spades, again aprtner tends to bid 2♥ here unless he has heart support.

 

GF hands just go through GF relay.

 

This is probably so ilegal for you, I supose if I ever play this in USA I might go to jail or something :P

 

Why are you playing this way?

[awm]

I guess I'm more conservative in my interpretation. No hard feelings.

 

No problem. It's very annoying how difficult to parse these ACBL regulations are. The "no relay systems" one is perhaps the most confusing. I've complained about this before, but the response I usually get is that it's completely clear... and then proceed to contradict themselves in a single email (like "the rules for legal openings in 1st seat and 3rd seat are the same" but "this hand would be legal to open in 3rd but not 1st"... or "obviously precision 2♣ is allowed on the general chart because it shows clubs" but "obviously 2♥ showing hearts and a minor is not allowed on the general chart"). At some point I was playing against what I thought was a non-game-forcing relay system in a general-chart event. I pointed this out to the director. He agreed with me, went to the table, the opponents said only "it's not a relay system" and then the director agreed with them (without any further discussion).

[straube]

Broadening even more to look at both our 1M opening response structures. Criticism welcome.

 

1H-

.....1S-natural, tends to deny hearts unless 5+ spades and GF

.....1N-semiforcing

..........2C-four clubs

...............2D-six diamonds

...............2S-GI clubs

...............3C-to play

...............3D-GI diamonds

..........2D-four diamonds

...............2S-GI diamonds

...............3C-GI clubs

...............3D-to play

..........2H-six hearts or 45(31) max (a 4522 max opens 1N)

...............2S-GI hearts, 2 hearts

.....2C-artificial, 13+, subsequent relay is GF, break is invitational natural

..........2D-bal or 4+ clubs or 5+ diamonds

..........2H-6H

..........2S-4 diamonds

..........2N-5S/6H

..........3C-4S, higher short

.....2D-constructive raise or limit raise with 3 trump

.....2H-less than constructive raise

.....2S-WJS

.....2N-LR+ with 4 trump

.....3C-WJS

.....3D-mixed raise

.....3H-weak raise

.....3S-WJS

.....3N-spade splinter

.....4C-diamond splinter

.....4D-club splinter

.....4M-to play

 

 

1S-

.....1N-semiforcing

..........2C-four clubs

...............2D-six diamonds

...............2H-1552, less than GI

...............3C-GI

...............3D-GI

..........2D-four diamonds

...............2H-1525, less than GI

...............3C-GI

...............3D-GI

..........2H-four hearts

...............3m-GI

.....2C-artificial, 13+, as for 1H

.....2D-five+ hearts, GI or light GF OR six+ hearts, 5+ hcps

..........2H-other

..........2S-six spades, 0-2 hearts

..........2N-6S/5m, medium+

..........3C-5S/6C, medium+

..........3D-5S/6D, medium+

..........3H-invitational

..........3S-six+ spades, highly invitational

..........3N?

..........4m-4+ trump, max, shortness, other minor

.....2H-usually 3 spades, constructive or limit

.....2S-less than constructive raise

.....2N-4+ spades, limit raise+

.....3m-weak jump shift

.....3H-mixed raise

.....3S-weak raise

.....3N-splinter, heart shortness

.....4C-splinter, diamond shortness

.....4D-splinter, club shortness

.....4M-to play

[awm]

A couple comments:

 

(1) I'm not convinced that your rebids over 1M-2♣ are really ordered properly. The concern is that when partner has an invitational hand, the suit he is least likely to fit is the other major. This is because he might bid 1♥-1♠ or 1♠-2♦ on at least some hands with length in that suit. By having the other major resolve highest (1M-2♣-2N+) you are basically hanging partner when he has an invite with no major fit. Further, 5/5 majors and similar hands are one of the most appealing to open on light values! I think better is to have the major one-suiters resolve higher, because 3M is likely to be a playable spot for the invite and because marginal openers with 6M might tend to open 2M (making the major one-suiter tend to be "sounder" than a 5/5 hand that might have no other option but pass).

 

(2) I'm still not sure you need all these raises. In particular, you could probably bid 2♣ on a GF raise and bid 2M-1 on a four-card limit raise (planning to bid again if opener signs off). This tends to conceal hands better on some game-only sequences, and also might help you on invites where opener needs help (for example you could play 1M:2M-1:2M:3x as a mini-splinter or concentration of values in a 4-card LR). This would free up 2NT (for example to handle another weak jump type hand either directly, or by swapping for the mixed raise).

[straube]

Yeah, we didn't design our relays with the idea of not being in a GF. Perhaps we can simply switch 2H and 2N+ so that

 

1S-2C,

.....2H-2N is just like a standard

 

1S-1N

.....2H-2N

 

Much better.

 

And then we probably have to be careful about intending to break relay with 13 and shortness in opener's major or we wind up in 3M on 6-1 fits.

 

So

 

1M-1N could be 13 with short major.

 

So regarding the other issue, if we slotted all the GF hands with a fit into 2C and we slotted all the constructive+ raises into 2M-1. How would you order the other bids? What would 2N be?

 

I like the idea of a mixed raise for hearts. Care less about a mixed raise for spades but am still inclined to have it.

 

Also, I'm a little surprised that you don't want to separate 3 from 4 trump raises (especially for hearts but also for spades). Thinking how Robson-Segal, Bergen et al have spent so much effort on showing that fourth trump.

[akhare]

A couple comments:

(2) I'm still not sure you need all these raises. In particular, you could probably bid 2♣ on a GF raise and bid 2M-1 on a four-card limit raise (planning to bid again if opener signs off). This tends to conceal hands better on some game-only sequences, and also might help you on invites where opener needs help (for example you could play 1M:2M-1:2M:3x as a mini-splinter or concentration of values in a 4-card LR). This would free up 2NT (for example to handle another weak jump type hand either directly, or by swapping for the mixed raise).

 

I too am skeptical about the need to split hairs when showing major suit raises (3 vs. 4 does bear some merit). Also, as Adam noted, there's something to be said about revealing as little information as possible during the auction.

 

Rob F. had a compressed Bergen scheme that encompassed LR and mixed type raises and it has the potential to free up other responses...

[straube]

I can see devoting less energy. However, a lot of these big fit hands get competitive quickly and it's useful to know about that 9th trump. If opener is 2-suited (for example) or has a poor trump holding, that 9th trump can be huge. It can mean the difference between losing control of the hand or not. Like if I have Axxxx x AQxxx xx I want to bid 4S over 4H if partner has 4, but if he has only 3 then the suit could break badly and I will get tapped immediately.

[awm]

There are two reasons to want to show the fourth trump:

 

(1) It can help you decide how high to compete.

(2) There are some hand types where it's important to game or slam decisions.

 

Two reasons not to show the fourth trump:

 

(1) It may help opponents decide whether to compete, or what to lead.

(2) Assuming showing the fourth trump forces you to the three-level, you may be able to play in 2M rather than 3M.

 

Given that the opponents have not (yet?) bid anything in an auction starting 1M-Pass, you may well benefit more in competition from ambiguous raises. Your gains from playing 2M instead of 3M and from concealing the fourth trump from them on opening lead will more than compensate you for the times when the opponents balance and this enables them to compete past 3M or make better leads/defensive decisions.

 

On the second reason to show the first trump (game/slam decisions), I'm saving a lot of space by bidding 2M-1 or 2M instead of 3M-1. This gives opener space to ask further about my hand (including perhaps asking about the fourth trump). It does mean I will play 3M on a slightly different set of hands. Essentially the question is whether I would rather play 3M on: (1) Hands where responder has a 4-card raise and opener has no game interest opposite that (2) Hands where responder has a 3-card raise and opener would want to be in game opposite only a four-card raise. My feeling is that the odds of making 3M are pretty similar in these two cases, but that I play 3M less often because opener's balanced hands (that never want to be in game opposite less than a limit raise) are much more common than the shapely hands that fall into the second category.

 

Whatever the merits here, you have an additional raise at the two-level that most people don't have. I'd encourage you to put as many raises as you can into 2M-1, with some of them planning another call if opener tries to sign off. It's dangerous for opponents to come in over 1M-Pass-(2M-1) since it shows real values, and you can actually distinguish even more types of raises this way, plus any time opener bashes game over 2M-1 you have reduced information to the opponents.

[straube]

I've never liked to religiously follow Bergen raises. With many hands that have four trump, bad trump, balanced pattern, and soft values, I prefer to stay at the 2-level. Hands that are more offensive (high ODR) and especially those with hearts I like to preempt. I think I would feel uneasy bidding 2M-1 (or 2C) with those sorts of hands. These auctions can ratchet quickly and I want to communicate offense at my first opportunity. So I don't want 2M-1 to deny a fourth trump. I want it to communicate a hand with a lower ODR. This means that I still need to consider keeping 2N or 3M-1 for more offensive hands.