Forcing NT

[gwnn]

The word "forcing" in "forcing Stayman" doesn't apply to the 2♣ bid; it applies to the final bid in these sequences:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 2♥

 

and

 

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 2♠

 

If you agree that the final bid in each of these sequences is nonforcing, you're playing "nonforcing Stayman"; if you agree that the final bid in these sequences is forcing, you're playing "forcing Stayman".

I know very well what it means, and I think it's a silly name.

[barmar]

Puppet Stayman also seems like a silly name. So is Two-Way New Minor Forcing (except after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, one of the minors isn't "new"). I'm not even sure where the name "Kickback" comes from; it doesn't seem descriptive, and I assume it's not someone's name. Negative doubles aren't always negative, and Responsive doubles are made by Advancer, not Responder (so maybe they should be called Advanced doubles?).

 

So get used to the fact that bridge terms don't always mean what they say.

[S2000magic]

I don't recall double raises (of a major suit) ever being unlimited; in Goren, for example, they were game-forcing and showed 13 - 16 points.

More likely 13-18 HCP. Anything stronger would require a strong jump shift (19+ HCP).

It's not at all likely that it's 13-18 HCP. I looked at my copy of Goren's Bridge Complete before I wrote my answer; it's 13 - 16 points, not 13 - 18.

What did responder do to raise opener with 17-18 HCP?

I don't recall. What responder didn't do was make a double raise.

[Lurpoa]

Of course. But we're talking about invitational 3-card support. Or do you consider those to be constructive? In my understanding, there are four ranges of raises: weak (5-7), constructive (8-10), limit (11-12-), game forcing (12+ and higher).

 

 

 

♥♥♥

 

 

 

You are so right !

 

and whch of the four is inviting ?

 

♥♥♥

[blackshoe]

Puppet Stayman also seems like a silly name. So is Two-Way New Minor Forcing (except after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, one of the minors isn't "new"). I'm not even sure where the name "Kickback" comes from; it doesn't seem descriptive, and I assume it's not someone's name. Negative doubles aren't always negative, and Responsive doubles are made by Advancer, not Responder (so maybe they should be called Advanced doubles?).

 

So get used to the fact that bridge terms don't always mean what they say.

 

Jeff Rubens invented Kickback. When he wrote it up for a Bridge World article ("The Useful Space Principle") he said, as I recall, that he had a reason for the name, but he didn't say what it was.

[gnasher]

Puppet Stayman also seems like a silly name. So is Two-Way New Minor Forcing (except after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, one of the minors isn't "new"). I'm not even sure where the name "Kickback" comes from; it doesn't seem descriptive, and I assume it's not someone's name. Negative doubles aren't always negative, and Responsive doubles are made by Advancer, not Responder (so maybe they should be called Advanced doubles?).

Furthermore, Namyats isn't reverse Stayman, Unusual over Unusual isn't unusual and doesn't show a two-suiter, and splinters don't always show a small piece of something.

Would it be unduly chauvinistic for me to point out that all of these terms originated in the same country? :)

 

PS How about "Advancive Doubles"?

[Finch]

and Grand Slam Force isn't.

[mikeh]

Unusual over Unusual isn't unusual

 

It used to be

[Vampyr]

Negative doubles aren't always negative,

 

Aren't they? You are either too weak to bid your suit or your suit(s) are too short. These are negatives.

[S2000magic]

--Goren's Bridge Complete is probably not the relevent authority on the ranges of today's opening bids and rebids.

But it is a relevant authority for "once upon a time", to which I was responding.

[S2000magic]

I don't recall double raises (of a major suit) ever being unlimited; in Goren, for example, they were game-forcing and showed 13 - 16 points.

More likely 13-18 HCP. Anything stronger would require a strong jump shift (19+ HCP).

It's not at all likely that it's 13-18 HCP. I looked at my copy of Goren's Bridge Complete before I wrote my answer; it's 13 - 16 points, not 13 - 18.

What did responder do to raise opener with 17-18 HCP?

". . . hands that are valued at 17 and 18 points in support of partner require delicate treatment. While they are not strong enough for a jump shift, they are nevertheless too strong for the double raise, and their strength must be described in a series of bids. Best results will usually be obtained by bidding two suits before supporting partner's bid."

[Vampyr]

" Best results will usually be obtained by bidding two suits before supporting partner's bid."

 

LOL

[aguahombre]

Aren't they? You are either too weak to bid your suit or your suit(s) are too short. These are negatives.

Or too strong to bid your suit if you use NFB's

[aguahombre]

". . . hands that are valued at 17 and 18 points in support of partner require delicate treatment. While they are not strong enough for a jump shift, they are nevertheless too strong for the double raise, and their strength must be described in a series of bids. Best results will usually be obtained by bidding two suits before supporting partner's bid."

For the enlightenment of the "LOL", many players do in fact bid around their shortness, rather than directly splinter or J2N or whatever when too strong for the splinter and they want to describe their hand rather than take over from their side of the table. Magic was expressing that style.

[Vampyr]

Or too strong to bid your suit if you use NFB's

 

Yes, and this might not be considered a negative, but the double is not called a "negative double" in this case anyway. I considered mentioning "Negative Free Bid Doubles" in the other post, but didn't think they were relevant, since the "negative" refers to the free bid, not the double.

 

For the enlightenment of the "LOL", many players do in fact bid around their shortness, rather than directly splinter or whatever when too strong for the splinter and they want to describe their hand rather than take over from their side of the table.

 

"Best results", though, will usually be obtained by having a bid that allows one to show support early in the auction. EDIT: Besides, a 17-18 point hand with support does not necessarily have a shortage in anything.

 

 

Magic was expressing that style.

 

No, he was quoting someone else expressing it a long time ago.

[S2000magic]

No, he was quoting someone else expressing it a long time ago.

Chuck Goren.

[Vampyr]

Chuck Goren.

 

Quite. That is who I'd assumed.

[gwnn]

Would it be unduly chauvinistic for me to point out that all of these terms originated in the same country? :)

No, just slightly ironic :) http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NQqvcpBuO8M/TdEgFeKhvOI/AAAAAAAAFnw/rQHrTJh_gHg/s1600/brits.JPG

[gordontd]

Puppet Stayman also seems like a silly name. So is Two-Way New Minor Forcing (except after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, one of the minors isn't "new"). I'm not even sure where the name "Kickback" comes from; it doesn't seem descriptive, and I assume it's not someone's name. Negative doubles aren't always negative, and Responsive doubles are made by Advancer, not Responder (so maybe they should be called Advanced doubles?).

 

So get used to the fact that bridge terms don't always mean what they say.

And Lebensohl is named after the mis-spelling of the name of a person who didn't invent it.

[ArtK78]

.... Negative doubles aren't always negative, ....

 

Yes they are. "Negative" means that the double is not for penalty, which would be a "Positive" double. Negative doubles are for takeout.

 

The exact meaning of a negative double has to be derived from the context in which it is made and the partnership agreements. But they are for takeout and not for penalty, so they are negative, not positive. Partner can convert the double to penalty by passing, but that doesn't change the meaning of the double.

[aguahombre]

Yes they are. "Negative" means that the double is not for penalty, which would be a "Positive" double. Negative doubles are for takeout.

 

The exact meaning of a negative double has to be derived from the context in which it is made and the partnership agreements. But they are for takeout and not for penalty, so they are negative, not positive. Partner can convert the double to penalty by passing, but that doesn't change the meaning of the double.

There we go. A voice of reason.

[fromageGB]

And Lebensohl is named after the mis-spelling of the name of a person who didn't invent it.

I agree. I didn't invent it, and that's not how I spell my name :D