pet peeve thread

[blackshoe]

If someone says "red" I look at where they're from. If it's England, it's the traffic light system. If it's NA, it means "vulnerable" but who is vul has to be figured from context. Unless it's me - then it's probably the traffic light thing. :D If they're from somewhere else, who knows? :unsure:

[Vampyr]

If someone says "red" I look at where they're from. If it's England, it's the traffic light system. If it's NA, it means "vulnerable" but who is vul has to be figured from context. Unless it's me - then it's probably the traffic light thing. :D If they're from somewhere else, who knows? :unsure:

 

I live in England, and very few people around here use the "traffic light" system -- at least in London.

[blackshoe]

I live in England, and very few people around here use the "traffic light" system -- at least in London.

Huh. Well, I learned it in Gosport. Never played in London. :unsure:

[Cyberyeti]

Well, there is jargon and there is babyish slang. "Dive" for sacrifice is one which I don't even understand, since we're bidding higher, not lower. Another kind of annoying thing is when people use those weird colour-codes for vulnerability, because they are ambiguous; if you say "red", does that mean that we're vulnerable or does it mean that we are at unfavourable vulnerability?

 

I presume dive is like a boxer taking a dive, putting yourself in the ring intending not to succeed.

[kenberg]

I am often confused by jargon. I have been playing, off and on, more more or less forever. I still get confused by phrases such as "The King is sitting over the Queen". Is this good for the Queen or bad for the Queen?

 

But I agree that all enterprises have jargon. I favor keeping it to a minimum. Zero, if possible.

 

 

Way back as a young prof, I applied for a research grant. .At that time the President of the University required that anyone applying for a grant include a short write-up for him describing, what the research was about. He read all of these. He sent a note to the Chair mentioning me, among others, as having written something that he, as a non-mathematician, could understand. I was very pleased by this. Yes I got the grant.

[blackshoe]

Interesting. My (Oxford American English) dictionary says that "jargon" comes from Middle English, with "an original meaning of 'twittering or chattering', later 'gibberish'".

 

Makes sense to me. B-)

[Thiros]

"sry"

 

It has boggled my mind for years that this dehydrated fragment of text-talk passes for an apology. If you are really and truly sorry, then spell out the damn word. Two extra letters isn't going to break your hand.

[jjbrr]

sry to hear it's taken you years and you still haven't figured out they aren't really and truly sry

[mycroft]

no, no,

 

"sry 2 heer its taken u years & u still haven't figured out"...

[y66]

sry to hear it's taken you years and you still haven't figured out they aren't really and truly sry

Just because I think this is funny as hell does not mean I am indifferent to the pain it will cause others.

[barmar]

But I agree that all enterprises have jargon. I favor keeping it to a minimum. Zero, if possible.

Proper use of jargon often serves as a shibboleth. Overuse or misuse marks someone as a wannabe.

[mike777]

Proper use of jargon often serves as a shibboleth. Overuse or misuse marks someone as a wannabe.

 

 

granted but that is 99.99% of us. :)

and that is ok.

easy to dismiss misuse...easy to forgive overuse.

 

I mean even Justin said he does not know in full 3 way kokish or what that means.

 

the fact they bother to know the jargon seems plus+1 to most of the world.

 

 

I can remember when "click, right or right click seemed confusing.

 

my first response was right click on what?

 

I bet without google many today would be confused by URL.

or put in URL and I said what is an URL and why do I care?

--------

 

 

anyway my only point is knowing the basic words of jargon is pretty important, more important that I ever thought.

Knowing the words if not in depth what the really mean can go far.

[kenberg]

The obvious danger with jargon is that it can lead to misunderstanding. I will be stopping by the "helpdesk" today at the University. My current expectations with these folks are pretty favorable, but it has been variable over the years. If I just need something simple done, then I suppose it doesn't matter whether I understand what they are saying or not., except that I still like to know. But often, with more complex issues, it's important to know what is going on. I appreciate it when these guys speak as if I am capable of grasping the message but I am not familiar with the lingo. "The X23 has to be buffered by the YT zygote by linking it to the zy23" doesn't mean much to me. Anyway, I appreciate it when someone speaks so that I understand what they are saying.

 

As to bridge jargon, here is a story from when I was first starting to play. I was declaring a hand and asked about carding. "We play upside down revolving Roman discards". I figured I could play the hand or learn what these were, there was not likely to be time to do both. I played the hand.

 

A partner and I once retaliated by playing Fibonacci discards: The Ace(=1) , 2,3,5,8 and King(=13) were encouraging the other cards were discouraging. I believe Bobby Wolff once suggested playing "My Social security Number" discards.

 

 

PS So you don't have to look it up: The Fibonacci sequence goes 1,1,2,3,,5,8,13,21,..., beginning with 1,1 and then each subsequent number is the sum of the preceding two numbers (13=8+5, 21=13+8, et cetera).

[mycroft]

Jargon has the massive benefit (in certain cases) that it has a very specific, very nuanced meaning, and it is almost impossible to hold a graduate-level conversation without it without overrunning the supper break. So, when talking to people in the know, about topics we can be comfortable with the ground rules on, I use the jargon, "knowing" that the rest of the conversation knows the 150 words I meant by "used UI".

 

However:

- people who don't know the jargon are not dumb, and also are not ignorable. You should be able to explain yourself with no jargon, and explain the jargon, to first-year knowledge people.

- there are some who are so deep into their world that they simply can not dig down to the "don't know anything yet" level. I have to admit that with bridge, I am one of those - but at least I know it and admit it. "Don't let mycroft near the novices (for answering questions, not for directing)". There are those who don't know that, and those who won't admit it. These are dangerous.

- there are those who could, but won't, explain without jargon. They're using it in an exclusionary manner, and are boors.

 

I am a very technical person, and don't speak Management (in fact, in long-standing techy tradition, I frequently refer to Manglement, even to Manglement.) I realize that there's lots of jargon and it gets the point across between people in Management, and they should use it when dealing with each other - it makes progress. But those who can de-jargon it for me are Management. Those who can't are Suits. Those who won't are [profanity elided], and I see no reason not to retaliate in kind.

[barmar]

The obvious danger with jargon is that it can lead to misunderstanding. I will be stopping by the "helpdesk" today at the University. My current expectations with these folks are pretty favorable, but it has been variable over the years. If I just need something simple done, then I suppose it doesn't matter whether I understand what they are saying or not., except that I still like to know. But often, with more complex issues, it's important to know what is going on. I appreciate it when these guys speak as if I am capable of grasping the message but I am not familiar with the lingo. "The X23 has to be buffered by the YT zygote by linking it to the zy23" doesn't mean much to me. Anyway, I appreciate it when someone speaks so that I understand what they are saying.

There are right times for jargon, and wrong times. Jargon streamlines conversations when it's used between members of the community that it's intended for. But when you're talking to outsiders, you have to remember that they don't speak your language, and you should adjust. Helpdesk techs live at the border between the two communities, and they should know to adjust their language depending on whether they're talking with insiders or outsiders.

 

However, with that said, the increased prevalence of high technology has caused many jargon terms to spread to ordinary language. There was a time when "mouse", "desktop", and "menu" were techie jargon, now they're commonly understood by practically everyone under 40. "URL" is pretty close behind. On the other hand, computer users don't typically need to deal directly with "virtual memory", so that jargon hasn't become mainstream, and probably never will.

[Fluffy]

I hate the smiley jdeegan puts on all his posts, it drives me crazy to the point that I have stopped reading anything he has to say.

[kenberg]

There are right times for jargon, and wrong times. Jargon streamlines conversations when it's used between members of the community that it's intended for. But when you're talking to outsiders, you have to remember that they don't speak your language, and you should adjust. Helpdesk techs live at the border between the two communities, and they should know to adjust their language depending on whether they're talking with insiders or outsiders.

 

However, with that said, the increased prevalence of high technology has caused many jargon terms to spread to ordinary language. There was a time when "mouse", "desktop", and "menu" were techie jargon, now they're commonly understood by practically everyone under 40. "URL" is pretty close behind. On the other hand, computer users don't typically need to deal directly with "virtual memory", so that jargon hasn't become mainstream, and probably never will.

 

It can get tricky. I, and I think many others, lie somewhere between insider and outsider. I am enough of an insider to have helped many in my age group (definitely not under 40) with computer issues. But I can't talk computerese w/o sounding like an idiot. Yesterday's very satisfactory encounter is a case in point. I had some files that I needed to edit. For reasons I won't bother describing, these had to be live in a rather complex tree structure, not one of my making. Moreover, the tree structure had evolved over time and the previous tech guy was not someone I found it easy to communicate with. Then everything went through a further and substantial restructuring, and now who knows where these files were. I found some but not all of them, and the ones I found I no longer had permission to edit. Clearly I needed help and I am pleased to say that I got it. I could do the Linnix stuff to navigate the tree and edit the files once I knew where they were, but the system was (very) large and finding them on my own was simply out of my league. Now maybe I am mis-using the term tree here. Or other terms. I don't know. It was good to be dealing with someone who was flexible about such matters.

 

The guy found my files, moved them to a sensible place, told me the path where they now were, and restored my editing permissions. I could take it from there. Well done, but earlier experiences have not always been so satisfactory. The current tech specialists are both competent and communicative. Such folks earn their pay!

 

 

This example perhaps is not exactly an issue of jargon, but it does fit into the larger issue of communication and of reasonable expectations.

Boy Scouts used to be expected to help old ladies cross the street. Perhaps this should be updated to helping us navigate the computer world.

[barmar]

Try to imagine talking about bridge without words like "finesse", "squeeze", "endplay", or phrases like "run the queen", "draw trumps", "strip the side suits", etc. Jargon is practically indispensible when talking within a community.

 

But I kind of remember when I first learned the word "tenace". I felt the need to use it when talking with other bridge players, to demonstrate that I was one of them. I'm sure it marked me as a wannabe, since it turns out that it's not commonly used in conversation, but mostly only in technical writing about bridge. These types of nuances take experience to learn, and that's how you can tell the difference between people who learned the language from books and those who are really community members. And it's the misuse by newbies that I suspect is the most grating. When you hear one of these newbies talking like this, your inclination may be to say, "Go away, kid, you bother me."

[kenberg]

Bar, your take on this is much closer to the original post of Amtrax. I sort of wandered off in a related but definitely different direction. I guess I am not all that bothered by the sort of show-off aspect of jargon, although I think it often hinders both thinking and communication.

 

Along these lines: Listening to the Spingold commentary on vugraph, there was a point where declarer could make the contract by forcing lho to cover a Jack with the Queen, and then picking up the ten from rho. There was no clear reason for doing so. The commentator was saying 'What's that called? It's, oh yes, a backward finesse".

Exactly. It's the analysis that counts, not the terminology. he was perfectly capable of spotting the needed play, and analyzing that in this instance there was no clear reason to take the anti-percentage play. Recalling the correct term was put in its proper and minor role. Jargon users often reverse these priorities.

 

For example, I once (probably often, but I recall this particular time) failed to make a surrounding play. My partner gave me a lecture including careful development of terminology. Well, I knew the terminology, my mistake was in not recognizing the position.

[Antrax]

Choo choo!

[Fluffy]

Talking about jargon, I've spend years wondering what the ***** meant Nationals, Spingold, Flight B, Silver Master and several more only american terms. I still don't know many of them.

[mycroft]

That's okay, most of the people who are them or who are playing in them don't either :-)

 

 

smiley deliberate

 

[jjbrr]

Talking about jargon, I've spend years wondering what the ***** meant Nationals, Spingold, Flight B, Silver Master and several more only american terms. I still don't know many of them.

 

lol euros

[kenberg]

Talking about jargon, I've spend years wondering what the ***** meant Nationals, Spingold, Flight B, Silver Master and several more only american terms. I still don't know many of them.

 

 

 

This is in accordance with the prescription that everyone is a winner. It is a cousin to the online practice of typing gtp after declarer, who has nine tricks on top, goes down in 3NT with imp scoring.

[dwar0123]

People who don't care enough about something to google it, but care enough to complain about it on the internet.