blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 According to your criteria the Norwegian stop card regulation is indeed well written! Not if it allows a player to break tempo by bidding quickly if the stop card is not used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Does allowing the RA to require mandatory pauses in some cases effectively give them full authority to determine what constitutes "undue hesitation or haste"? And does failure of one side to use the STOP card really mean that the other side can't be considered to have called with undue haste even if they do it instantaneously after the bid? Suppose their normal tempo is 1-2 seconds per call, but this time they pass in a fraction of a second. Shouldn't that be considered a BIT even if the STOP card isn't used? Not if it allows a player to break tempo by bidding quickly if the stop card is not used. Sven didn't say anything about this; I think that by "immediately" he meant in normal tempo. After all, any bid made much faster than a player's normal tempo is a BIT; why would this change after a bid that should have been preceded by the appearance of the STOP card? Why construct a straw man in order to criticise a well-written and sensible regulation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm not constructing a straw man, and you don't know what Sven meant. If the Norwegian regulation, in its interpretation, prohibits breaking tempo by bidding too quickly, fine, but that is not what he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm not constructing a straw man, and you don't know what Sven meant. If the Norwegian regulation, in its interpretation, prohibits breaking tempo by bidding too quickly, fine, but that is not what he said. The Laws prohibit breaking tempo by bidding too quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes, I know they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes, I know they do. If you know, then why are you suggesting that the Norwegian regulations condone deliberate infractions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Maybe Blackshoe owes Sven an apology? ;) Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Maybe you people should read what Sven said, and what I said, before start asking why I'm doing something I'm not doing. And no, I don't owe Sven an apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm not constructing a straw man, and you don't know what Sven meant. If the Norwegian regulation, in its interpretation, prohibits breaking tempo by bidding too quickly, fine, but that is not what he said.Stefanie has understood perfectly well what I meant. Why on earth has "bidding too quickly" anything to do in a discussion on mandatory pauses in the auction? Just to dot the i's and cross the zeroes: The Norwegian regulation on STOP does not override Law 73A2 in any way, but it explicitly says that ten seconds is not undue hesitation in situations where STOP is required, whether or not STOP is correctly used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 You said that the Norwegian regulation permits the LHO of a player who has not used the stop card when making a skip bid is permitted to bid "immediately". If normal tempo is 2-3 seconds, "immediately" is less than that, and a violation of 73A2. That's based on what you said. If what you meant was "immediately, but in tempo" or suchlike, you should have said that. The question is not about mandatory pauses, per se,. It is about whether a particular regulation appears to allow a violation of law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 You said that the Norwegian regulation permits the LHO of a player who has not used the stop card when making a skip bid is permitted to bid "immediately". If normal tempo is 2-3 seconds, "immediately" is less than that, and a violation of 73A2. That's based on what you said. If what you meant was "immediately, but in tempo" or suchlike, you should have said that. The question is not about mandatory pauses, per se,. It is about whether a particular regulation appears to allow a violation of law.Do I understand you correct that you never, ever make any call "immediately"? When I say "immediately" in such context it is to be understood without any pause for thought but of course not with undue haste. Frankly I didn't expect any of my readers to misunderstand me on such a detail. And a pause of 2-3 seconds will normally be ruled a pause for thought in Norway and therefore BIT by a player who has nothing to think about unless he is generally slow in his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Do I understand you correct that you never, ever make any call "immediately"? I didn't say that. IAC, I don't see why what I do has any bearing on what the law says. When I say "immediately" in such context it is to be understood without any pause for thought but of course not with undue haste. Frankly I didn't expect any of my readers to misunderstand me on such a detail. And a pause of 2-3 seconds will normally be ruled a pause for thought in Norway and therefore BIT by a player who has nothing to think about unless he is generally slow in his actions. "It is to be understood"? Perhaps you should have given that instruction when you made your statement originally. What is "normal tempo" in Norway? How was this value determined? Last week, at the club, my RHO made a skip bid. I duly paused for ten seconds, then reached towards my bidding box. The instant my hand moved, my LHO's hand moved towards her bidding box. Our pass cards hit the table almost simultaneously. Do you think she broke tempo? I do. It takes a second or so for a player to see his RHO's call, assimilate its meaning, and choose his own call. I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to keep my hand still until I've done all that, and then move it towards the bidding box. The reason for that is that I've been bitten in the past by having changed my mind while I was picking a card out of the box or on my way to doing so, and having an opponent call the TD, who ruled that my "hesitation" in picking the bidding card conveyed UI to my partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I would like to apologize to Blackshoe. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 What is "normal tempo" in Norway? How was this value determined?I don't know of any formal specification for the duration of "normal tempo". From my own experience during more than sixty years with bridge (including my pre-director period) I would say that in a problem-free auction each call after the first round of the auction is made within about half a second (excluding possible STOP delays). In a situation where anything but pass would be a great surprise I know of nobody who would react if that pass is made "simultaneously" within a split second from (you would probably say "simultaneously" with) RHO's call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I would like to apologize to Blackshoe. Rik Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I appreciate Rik's apology. Thank you Rik. I do not appreciate Alex's trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I appreciate Rik's apology. Thank you Rik. I do not appreciate Alex's trolling. I've been following this thread - and in the rare position of agreeing with everything Sven and Vampyr say. So I was genuinely interested in Trinidad's posts and his change of position. I do think it is amusing in context for you to say I'm trolling, and should I care what you 'appreciate' blackshoe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Why?For thinking what I thought about him. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I've been following this thread - and in the rare position of agreeing with everything Sven and Vampyr say. So I was genuinely interested in Trinidad's posts and his change of position. I do think it is amusing in context for you to say I'm trolling, and should I care what you 'appreciate' blackshoe? Okay, you weren't trolling. Fine. Looked like you were to me. As for your "should I care", it's generally a good idea to be civil in forums, particularly when talking to a moderator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 it's generally a good idea to be civil in forums, particularly when talking to a moderator.Why "particularly when talking to a moderator"? It seems to me that incivility to a moderator should have no greater consequences than incivility to anyone else. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvage Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 If my RHO fails to produce STOP when required I usually do not bother:I may call immediately if I have nothing to think about, I spend up to ten seconds if I need it. Our regulation gives me the right to delay my call up to ten seconds regardless of any STOP by RHO when STOP is required. It gives me the right to call at any earlier time unless STOP is in force when I call. If the mood at the table calls for it I may make a friendly comment that "you should have used STOP here". Do I have any problem with this? NO! When as TD I am called to a table because of alleged BIT in a situation where STOP is required I first of all ascertain whether STOP was indeed used.If not my ruling will usually be "no rectification" unless the BIT is shown to having been really excessive. I expect this to have the beneficial side-effect that the players will be more observant on the STOP regulation in the future. Since some posters seems to like Svens practice maybe I should not comment, but his description is not quite consistent with our Norwegian regulations (as a member of our national laws commision I am partly responsible for these). He is correct that the regulations place the main responsibilty on the stop-bidder. But he failed to mention that the regulation then says (my shortened translation): "Correct tempo is to wait 10 seconds. A significantly shorter or longer pause than 10 seconds may be considered to transmit UI even if the Stop-procedure has not been followed by the stop-bidder." Sven is correct that the TD is very seldom (never?) called because of too fast calls when the Stop-procedure has not been followed, but as a player who knows the laws and regulations better than most I would not have expected him to call immediately, and even recommend this practice. Personally (and most experienced players actually seems to do the same) I try to always take a short break after a stop-bid. I may however admit that this pause will sometimes be closer to 5 than 10 seconds if the stop-card has not been used and I have no problem... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Since some posters seems to like Svens practice maybe I should not comment, but his description is not quite consistent with our Norwegian regulations (as a member of our national laws commision I am partly responsible for these). He is correct that the regulations place the main responsibilty on the stop-bidder. But he failed to mention that the regulation then says (my shortened translation): "Correct tempo is to wait 10 seconds. A significantly shorter or longer pause than 10 seconds may be considered to transmit UI even if the Stop-procedure has not been followed by the stop-bidder." Sven is correct that the TD is very seldom (never?) called because of too fast calls when the Stop-procedure has not been followed, but as a player who knows the laws and regulations better than most I would not have expected him to call immediately, and even recommend this practice. Personally (and most experienced players actually seems to do the same) I try to always take a short break after a stop-bid. I may however admit that this pause will sometimes be closer to 5 than 10 seconds if the stop-card has not been used and I have no problem... JohnI must admit that I have overlooked that particular clause (enhanced by me above) within our 2-page long regulation on STOP. I had to look it up and found it in a paragraph rather "far later" from the paragraph first specifying a 10 seconds pause and placing the responsibility on the stop-bidder. (Not an excuse, but possibly an explanation.) And I have never experienced (or even heard of) a situation where no hesitation or a long hesitation after a failure to provide a required STOP has resulted in any rectification unless there has been a hesitation in the order of a minute or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Why "particularly when talking to a moderator"? It seems to me that incivility to a moderator should have no greater consequences than incivility to anyone else.It seems to me you are right, but so is blackshoe. It should not have greater consequences but in practice they do - moderators are humans who have feelings too and who are subjective too. So in practice it is a good idea to be more courteous to a moderator than a non-moderator because the (unwritten) standards for civility are likely to be more strict for moderators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Okay, you weren't trolling. Fine. Looked like you were to me. As for your "should I care", it's generally a good idea to be civil in forums, particularly when talking to a moderator. I agree blackshoe, but when the moderator is acting in that role. When the moderator is just posting opinions, I don't see that they have special privileges to comment without response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Generally speaking, I welcome responses to my posts — if they're civil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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