Non-Serious 3NT

[32519]

[hv=pc=n&s=s64hakjt9dj64cak5&w=sqt952h854dt85c74&n=sa8hq62da3cqj9862&e=skj73h73dkq972ct3&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1hp2cp3cp3hp3np4sp5cp6hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

These two guys showed how to bid good slams. They were playing 2/1.

 

1♥ Natural 5-card suit

2♣ 2/1 Game Force

3♣ Club fit

3♥ Heart fit (now they had a fit in 2 suits)

3NT Non-Serious (no extra values)

4♠ Kickback for ♥

5♣ 3 Keycards

6♥

 

One other pair played in 6♣. The rest played in 4♥ makeing all 13 tricks.

[manudude03]

South is too strong for 3NT imo, if he bid a serious 4C instead, getting to grand should be trivial.

[whereagles]

What's so special about this? It's just good hand evaluation by North.

 

Besides, some people play that 3C shows extras. In that context South has absolutely nothing to spare over 3H, hence his frivolous 3NT bid.

[Phil]

I have AKx in partner's suit and AKJT9 in mine and this is a non-serious try? Wowsers.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that North makes another move over 3N - opposite a true non-serious hand, I'm not sure the 5 level is safe at all.

 

Furthermore, once partner shows me we have all the keys and the trump Q, and I can't make a try for 7?

 

I would feel very bad if I couldn't find the grand in any of my partnerships.

[aguahombre]

I have AKx in partner's suit and AKJT9 in mine and this is a non-serious try? Wowsers.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that North makes another move over 3N - opposite a true non-serious hand, I'm not sure the 5 level is safe at all.

 

Furthermore, once partner shows me we have all the keys and the trump Q, and I can't make a try for 7?

 

I would feel very bad if I couldn't find the grand in any of my partnerships.

Again we have disagreement on definitions. For us, serious and non-serious are both "tries".

 

The partnership is better placed already by the serendipity of not having opened 1NT. South's range, thus far, is still 12 with 4-card support for clubs up to just short of a 2C opener.

 

The given hand is certainly short of a "serious" 4C, but clearly within non-serious 3NT for us. Non-serious non-try with nothing extra would bid 4H.

 

After non-serious describing basically what South has, how could North possibly not continue? North has controls in the sides and the fillers in the two-suit fit.

 

4NT 6-key RKC should allow North to count tricks.

[phil_20686]

Everyone seems to have missed the obvious explanation - that going past two hearts already showed extras. Then south indeed has no extras for his bidding.

[Phil]

Aqua - here's the way I look at it and how we do things in my partnerships. I would also assume this with an expert partner that is up to speed on 21st century methods.

 

Opener's hand is broken into four separate categories.

 

1. A total POS. Bad controls, and I might have been passing a SF forcing 1N response if I were balanced. This hand does not cue bid over 3♥. It does not make a NS try. It signs off. This says to partner, "I have a minimum and lousy controls. If you move past game, do so at your own risk".

 

2. A useful minimum. This is what NS was invented for. Opposite the right 17, or the right 5 or 6 loser hand, this hand type has potential. I'd say the hand tends to have a high loser count, but good controls, but this needn't be the case. Something like Ax KTxxx xx AJxx is right, even though it clearly does not have 'extras'.

 

3. Extra values. This is normally defined as an A or a K more than #2, but this isn't a hard and fast rule. The OP hand squarely fits within this definition. If one makes a serious try, it does not automatically force to slam. With the OP hand, I would feel very unlucky if slam was not at least fair if we had sufficient controls in the off suits and enough keys. I do agree that 6 ace is useful in this sequence.

 

4. The nuts. This hand will cue bid, and may be close to a slam force. It may take control, or it may hope partner does. In either case, it is extension of three.

 

By the way, I'm guessing you would not make a NS try with Ax KTxxx xx AJxx, if you would with the OP hand. I would kindly suggest that you've simply incorporated NS as a "hand that doesn't want to force to slam, but a hand that wants to show extras". Many bridge players in So Cal still play that a cue bid in a GF auction 'shows extras', and you are now casting these hands into NS auctions. But this is not how it is played in the mainstream. A NS hand just shows a minimum, and "I don't hate my hand".

 

The partnership is better placed already by the serendipity of not having opened 1NT. South's range, thus far, is still 12 with 4-card support for clubs up to just short of a 2C opener.

 

What the heck does this mean? Did we imply we were balanced at some stage?

[Phil]

Everyone seems to have missed the obvious explanation - that going past two hearts already showed extras. Then south indeed has no extras for his bidding.

 

Where does the OP say this?

[Cascade]

[hv=pc=n&s=s64hakjt9dj64cak5&w=sqt952h854dt85c74&n=sa8hq62da3cqj9862&e=skj73h73dkq972ct3&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1hp2cp3cp3hp3np4sp5cp6hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

 

The suit symbols are not working in this auction for me.

 

Does anyone else see that?

 

I checked some other posts and I get the correct symbols in those other posts.

[blackshoe]

They look fine to me.

[phil_20686]

Where does the OP say this?

 

It doesnt say it, but as pointed out, the use of the NS and the tries that followed it appear idiosyncratic if opener never showed extras. If he did the whole auction makes sense. It is also a very common treatment in 2/1. It is standard among the circles I play in.

 

You are inferring that it is the "non-serious" description that is wrong, I am inferring that the "3c" description is wrong.

 

More generally, there are three bids in this auction that could either show extras or be limited: 3C, 3H and 3N

 

Its a very normal treatment to play that 3c shows extras, a less common but not unknown treatement that 3H shows extras, and 4H would be a "Bad" hand with 3 card support. If on the other hand 3H was limited, then 3N would be automatically upgraded, as who makes slam moves with minimum opposite a minimum. Its an even less common treatement to play 3N as showing extras, but fewer extras than a four level cuebid. As you pointed out what does he need for a cue bid if he has shown no extras and 3N was NS.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

A couple of observations.

-- 2♣ may not guarantee 5 cards.

 

-- Thus, 3♣ normally should show at least 4 cards.

 

-- The auction thru 3♥ shows a double-fit, so Aquaman's mention of 6-Ace RKC is valid.

( 3♥ should be 3 cards but could be 4 cards as shown the the recent "Splinter, Jacoby2NT..." thread here ).

 

-- Eventho South has "extras" in terms of hcp, s/he doesn't have a ♠ or ♦ Ctrl to bid over 3♥....

and a 4C bid could be interpreted as RKC... so is essentially forced to bid 3NT! ( waiting for cues ? and definitely not to play in this double-fit auction ).

 

-- Should 4C! or 4S! be 6 Ace RKC ? ( I've seen a Kit Woolsey reference use 4D! as 6 Ace RKC in a ♥/♦ double-fit auction).

 

-- Regardless who takes control with RKC, neither partner can count to a sure 13 tricks, and thus, settle in a small slam.

( North can count to a sure 12 tricks, but South can only count to a sure 11 -- if North's ♣ suit was only 4 cards ).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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Using my homegrown system:

South North

1H - 2C! ( GF )

2NT! ( shows "extras", 15+ )* - 3H

4C! ( Ctrl cue ) - 4S! ( kickback-RKC for Hts )

4NT! ( 0/3 ) - 5D! ( 2nd step = K-ask; 1st step would be Ht-Q-ask )

6C ( Cl-King only; denying Sp and Diam K's - PASS (more confident about 12 tricks with Cl as trump; not sure about 5 Ht tricks ).

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

* A 2nd way to bid 2NT would show a minimum opener:

1H - 2C!

2H! ( artificial, any minimum) - 2S! ( asks for further description )

2NT! ( minimum and no 4 cards Spades )

[wank]

to the OP, i'm afraid the standard of play ust be extremely low at your club if getting to 6H with 7NT cold is an outright top.

[bluecalm]

to the OP, i'm afraid the standard of play ust be extremely low at your club if getting to 6H with 7NT cold is an outright top.

 

I suspect many very good pairs would end up in 3NT here by sequence:

1NT - 3NT or some kind of puppet stayman inserted.

 

Don't be so quick to criticize :)

[wank]

I suspect many very good pairs would end up in 3NT here by sequence:

1NT - 3NT or some kind of puppet stayman inserted.

 

Don't be so quick to criticize :)

 

really? i would expect the very good norths in these 'very good pairs' to make a slam try with a 13 count and a 6 card suit opposite a strong NT

[aguahombre]

The partnership is better placed already by the serendipity of not having opened 1NT.

What the heck does this mean? Did we imply we were balanced at some stage?

Well, I think it means a lot.

 

Starting with: opener was unprepared for most any response except a natural 2C, but that one good thing happened ---putting responder in the driver's seat able to count tricks in a simple 6 keycard auction.

 

Next: If we had opened 1NT, it is unlikely responder will be able to know about the fifth heart and/or opener will be able to take over for the counting by discovering the rounded queens.

 

Also, we clearly did not imply we were balanced at any stage. Quite the contrary; a NS 3NT seems needed with only an Ace above a cooperating minimum (this hand surely qualifies) and would by inference be at least 5-4 in the two suits (or we have a NT opening). NS is needed for that range, IMO because we could also have a much bigger hand. But, as luck would have it, responder doesn't need that inference.

 

Hence, a lot of serendipity.

[Free]

I don't understand why you think these guys are good. I would play 7NT, because the North hand can count to 13 (6♣+5♥+2 Aces). After 5♣ he can bid 5♠ asking for Kings (not interested in ♥Q otherwise bid 5♦) and opener can show his ♣K.

 

And how the hell can South bid 3NT??? It doesn't get much better than that imo. 4♣ would make it very easy: no control ♠, control ♣, lets see what partner does. If he doesn't have a ♦ control he bids 4♦ last train, after which you can play an easy 4♥. Otherwise partner can blacky.

[the hog]

If 3NT was really non serious, then this is a lol. Sorry! I can't believe it was NS!

[32519]

I don't understand why you think these guys are good.

 

I thought they were good for 1 very simple reason. 14 tables played in 4♥ making 13. 1 table played in 6♣ making 13. These were the only guys to bid the ♥ slam. Who knows how long they have been playing Serious/Frivolous 3NT? Maybe they were a pick-up pair. Maybe these two guys are like me. Whenever experimenting with a new toy, there is always the learning curve. In the beginning one is hesitant, taking instead the safe option. Once you have gained enough confidence with a new toy, exploring for the grand will become easier.

 

I posted the hand for the benefit of non-experts. When they see how the auction unfolded, perhaps they too will be encouraged to experiment with Serious/Frivolous 3NT.

[Fluffy]

The suit symbols are not working in this auction for me.

 

Does anyone else see that?

 

I checked some other posts and I get the correct symbols in those other posts.

 

I see no problem at all.

 

 

Since people here like fancy conventions this one is an obvious 6KCBW position. I never played kickback nor serious 3NT but I wouldn´t either miss this grand I think.

[aguahombre]

Two things I have learned from these discussions of 3NT are:

 

1) What we use 3NT to show in suit G.F. auctions we should never call by any of those names, and it is a minority use for 3NT.

2) We like how we use it.

[32519]

Two things I have learned from these discussions of 3NT are:

 

1) What we use 3NT to show in suit G.F. auctions we should never call by any of those names, and it is a minority use for 3NT.

2) We like how we use it.

 

For the benefit of the uninformed (me), could you kindly expand on your point 1 above?

1.) If this is the minority use for 3NT, then what is the majority use?

2.) It appears that you use 3NT for a different meaning. Kindly elaborate.

 

These forums contain a wealth of information for anyone making the effort to read the topics posted. I certainly hope to continue improving as a player.

 

I have posted a question on the meaning of abbreviations in the "General Bridge Discussion" forum as well. If you know the answer, kindly help me there as well.

 

Thank you.

[aguahombre]

For the benefit of the uninformed (me), could you kindly expand on your point 1 above?

1.) If this is the minority use for 3NT, then what is the majority use?

2.) It appears that you use 3NT for a different meaning. Kindly elaborate.

I simply meant that people use the terms, "Serious", "non-serious", and "frivolous" (supposedly the same as NS) differently than we do. They are ademant that their definitions are accurate/standard; so be it.

 

We like to use 3NT when a game is forced, either of us might have extras, and a major suit is established for trump -- as our first clue to partner that the hand we hold is hugely above previously stated value; and use what we previously called a courtesy cue to suggest cooperation in case PARTNER might be the one with the extras.

 

When one hand has shown to be within a fairly small range, however we reverse the meanings of the two "tries" in order to save room and avoid leaking specific information if it won't be needed.

 

We are comfortable using these methods because we have solid understanding of when they apply, and have other inferences from bids not made but available at the point where 3NT could be used. Others point out that this is not how NS or "S" is defined, so we will continue along our merry way without having a name for what we do.

 

BTW, one of the reasons our continuations in G.F. auctions are different from others' is because we don't use J2N, and our 2/1 auctions contain a lot more major suit fit situations than "normal".

[Zelandakh]

My take:

The South hand is a 1NT opener for many.

As others have pointed out the auction only makes sense if 3C showed extras. The opponents should have explained this imho.

The 3C raise is interesting in another aspect in that it would usually show at least 4 in normal 2/1. It might be that they are playing a version of fred's method where balanced GF hands can start with 2NT. Again, if this were the case then some sort of explanation would have been in order.

I do not understand why North signed off after 5C - it seems blindingly obvious to ask about the ♣K at this point, either by a specific king ask or a specific suit ask. Once South shows ♥AKxxx and ♣AKx(x) North can count to 13.

Serious and Frivolous slam tries are different according to whether we are limited or partner is limited or we are both unlimited. You improve your slam accuracy notably if you can manage to limit one or both hands before reaching this point.

It is more common to play Serious 3NT than Frivolous. I would guess that Serious or natural would be the most common meaning for 3NT in such auctions depending upon the quality of the player you ask.

Slams almost always score well in low-level clubs, even obvious small slams where 7NT is laydown.

 

There are several possible auctions for my system here but this is the most probable. The structure over 2D is new so good practise to play with :).

 

1C = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1S = no 4 card major, GF

2D = 15-17 bal

... - 2S = puppet to 2NT

2N

... - 3C = 5 card major?

3H = 5 hearts

... - 3S = agrees hearts

3N = no spade control

... - 4C = club control?

4D = yes, but not diamonds

... - 4S = RKCB for hearts

5C = 0 or 3

... - 6C = club ask

6N = CK, no CQ

... - 7N