Raising after 1D-1H uncontested

[awm]

I'm curious as to what the popular style is these days with regard to raising on three-card support. Feel free to comment!

 

I understand that sometimes this might depend on honor location; in that case try to check what you would usually do.

[aguahombre]

The first item might have been shown as "1-3-(54)" to allow for an opener prepared for a 1S response instead of 1H.

[straube]

Yeah. Can you amend the poll to split 1354 and 1345? I'll raise with the latter.

[JLOGIC]

Tough to say what I'd usually do, it would always depend on honor location and how good my hand is. I would sometimes raise and sometimes not raise with all of the 36 hand types, and hand types with a stiff and 3 trumps. I would raise much less frequently with 5332, and almost never with 4342. Also, I would basically always raise with 13(54).

[MickyB]

Same as Justin, except I raise with a balanced hand with three-card support iff I have a low doubleton, Tx being marginal. My partnership should probably rebid 1NT on all 43(42)s to get maximum use of responder's 2♥ rebid [4♠5♥ NF] but I doubt you care about that!

[Yu18772]

I think it also depends on style - my impression that it is much more common to raise on 3 card support in USA than in Europe, definitely more than in Israel.....In general I play that a raise is 4 cards, so I would raise on 3 cards only when i really dont have another true descriptive bid and a weakish hand (would never jump to 3 with 3 card support). With 4 cards ♠ would always bid them, with 1354 would most likely bid the ♣ (unless it is something like x,KQT,AKxxx,5432). With 2344 (not in your poll) I may also raise on 3 cards, but again need very bad ♣ HHx ♥ and xx in ♠. So I would guess it is very much dependent on honor location, but I would strive not to.

Also -it might be more informative to ask on which shapes one would never raise with 3?

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[Phil]

Everything but the 4342. Rebidding my suit, or a 3rd suit, and then reverting to hearts tends to show extras; even an innocuous 1m - 1♥ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♥.

 

Agree with Jlogic - I reserve the right to break these rules depending on honor location.

 

Adam - no 4333? :rolleyes:

[jmcw]

Very often on 13(54).

Often on the 2353 with a weakish dub

Rarely on a 6 card ♦ unless weak suit and a stiff.

 

But only within the last year since I have better methods to find out.

[Siegmund]

Occasionally with 1354. Rarely with 3361/1363. Very rarely with 2353. Never (so far, yet) with 4 spades or 5-5 or with a strong enough hand to wish I could jump. I spent most my bridge-playing life absolutely positively NEVER raising with 4; its a relatively new thing for me, and I try to limit it to a few situations where it's clearly right. I wouldn't be surprised if I do it more often as time goes by.

 

Edited to add: after 1D-1H, opener always has an alternative rebid; after the other 1m-1M sequences, it's much easier for opener to be in a bind. The one time I almost routinely raise on 3 is with one of the 5-4-3-1 patterns that would require a reverse to show the 4-card suit (e.g. 3451 after 1D-1S).

[Free]

I will raise with all of them except 4=3=5=1, but this ALWAYS depends on honor location! Raising on a 3 card suit for me is done when no other rebid looks appealing. For example, without a small doubleton I won't raise with a balanced hand, or with a decent 6 card suit I won't raise either.

 

EDIT: apparently I voted 4=3=4=2 but I thought you meant 2=3=4=4. Basically I'll never raise with a 4 card ♠, so 1 vote less for 4342.

[WrecksVee]

I makred the poll as need four cards to raise. This is because I would raise to three on a case by case basis AND I expect partner to assume four. This is a carry over for me from learning KS before Standard American

 

As I prefer to play weak NT none of the balanced minimums would be an issue.

[fromageGB]

For me I will always bid 2♦ with a 6 card suit if I do not have 4 hearts. Time enough to support hearts later if partner bids again.

 

However, without 6 diamonds, and without 4 spades, I will always raise hearts on a 3 card suit if I have a void or singleton in the hand (as I always will if I open 1♦), as the shortage with probably immediate ruffs is worth an additional card. But not a low doubleton : the ruff(s) may not materialise.

[fromageGB]

When I have 4351 shape I think a rebid of 1♠ is better, as my partner can easily have 44 in both majors. If he doesn't, the fact that I have bid 1♠ rather than 1NT (which shows a hand with a heart shortage) will lead him to believe that I am a 4x6x shape, and he will convert to 2♦. At that point, I will then correct to 2♥. So I don't need to bid 2♥ immediately, I can afford to find the better spade fit if there is one.

 

Perhaps this is one of the advantages of playing a transfer walsh 1♣ with balanced hands, and an unbalanced (or 6 card) 1♦.

[mycroft]

I tend to only raise when rebidding NT is uncomfortable, and that's my "natural" bid. So, good hearts, weak doubleton (usually spades). I guess a 1=3=6=3 would apply with weak diamonds, too, but I'd never think of it without the cards in my hand.

 

Playing a weak NT, I'm *much* less likely to raise on 3 - partly because I'm playing 1m K-S style, so the 2M raise is *sound*, and partly because partner is much more likely to have a NMF/CBS call, so I'm much less likely to be in a stupid 1NT contract with 2M being clear.

 

I guess it also depends on what your partnership agreement is for bidding 1♦-1♥; 1NT-2♥ on "5, < INV".

[Statto]

I understand that sometimes this might depend on honor location; in that case try to check what you would usually do.

Usually wouldn't raise ♥ here with only 3. Probably most likely to with 2353 and poor ♠, or perhaps 1354 at MPs, white v red.

 

As well as honor location, it may also depend on whether partner is a passed hand (so won't go leaping off to 4♥ when 3NT may be better), the scoring (at MPs 2♥ may more often be preferable to 2m), and/or the vulnerability (might opps still enter the auction? - this cuts both ways).

[whereagles]

I have a couple years experience with 3 card raises and after my share of bad boards I can tell you three things:

 

1. Don't raise without a singleton or void. Especially if you have 6 cards in your minor. Playing the 4-3 fit without ruffs while a 6-2, 5-3 or even 6-3 one is available is not good.

 

2. If you have a 6 minor is good you're probably better off rebidding. This is especially true if the minor is 7 cards.

 

3. You need some follow-up tools. There are a lot of issues that have to be cleared up with detailed agreements. Loose unwritten stuff is not going to cut it. If you're not willing to discuss this with pard, just don't raise without 3 cards unless you're PRETTY sure it's the best thing.

[bluecalm]

1-3-5-4 is the only shape I am more or less happy to raise with, even that only reluctantly.

The reason is that this auction is rare if partner is weak. We have stiff spade, partner has max 4. If there is strength balance they would very often interfere already, if they didn't the chances are partner won't pass our 2♣.

 

More interesting would be raising after 1♠ response where, assuming standard system, I am much more willing to raise with 3 (always 3-4-5-1 shape and often 3-1-(5-4) shape, maybe even 3-1-xxxxxx-3 sometimes).

[han]

Some might say that raising spades with a 3-2-4-4 distribution is different from raising hearts with a 2-3-4-4 distribution.

[JLOGIC]

Some might say that raising spades with a 3-2-4-4 distribution is different from raising hearts with a 2-3-4-4 distribution.

 

Very different. Likewise, with 22(45) in precision, when you open 1D and your partner bids 1H, I believe it is almost always right to bid 1N. However, when partner bids 1S, it is usually right to bid 2m esp if you play reverse flannery responses to 1D.

[awm]

I'm a little confused by the number of people who raise on 1354 but not 0364. It seems to me that:

 

(1) The alternative call in both cases is 2♣. But 2♣ is much less likely to be the right contract on 0364 than 1354.

(2) The latter hand is a better dummy for hearts, and I would be more concerned about missing 4♥ here than with 1354.

 

Can someone explain the reasoning to me here? (I would raise on both hands)

[fromageGB]

I'm a little confused by the number of people who raise on 1354 but not 0364. It seems to me that:

 

(1) The alternative call in both cases is 2♣. But 2♣ is much less likely to be the right contract on 0364 than 1354.

(2) The latter hand is a better dummy for hearts, and I would be more concerned about missing 4♥ here than with 1354.

 

Can someone explain the reasoning to me here? (I would raise on both hands)

The alternative call on 0364 is 2♦ for me, not 2♣. I would rather bid 2♥ than 2♣, but prefer to show my 6 card diamond suit rather than immediately fix on hearts. If partner has a further bid I will be delighted to support or pass hearts, but when he is a weak hand with a 3433 shape, the 6-3 fit is likely to score better than the 4-3 fit, but I agree it's a close call. But yes, 2♥ rather than 2♣.

[wank]

The alternative call on 0364 is 2♦ for me, not 2♣. I would rather bid 2♥ than 2♣, but prefer to show my 6 card diamond suit rather than immediately fix on hearts. If partner has a further bid I will be delighted to support or pass hearts, but when he is a weak hand with a 3433 shape, the 6-3 fit is likely to score better than the 4-3 fit, but I agree it's a close call. But yes, 2♥ rather than 2♣.

 

partner doesn't have a 3433 shape when you play 2♦, i promise you.

[Flameous]

In unbalanced ♦ context and transfer rebids by opener, I raise with all but 0355 but then again I have differentiated 3 and 4 card raises.

With 6+♦ I have the choice of not showing support but usually do. I tend to rebid diamonds only with really minimum hands and good spots or 7+ suits obviously.

I'm not too happy doing it with 4351/4360 shapes, but it makes the complete structure work quite nicely. Playing natural methods, I'd always bid spades there. (And probably agree that later heart bid doesn't show extra strength as it usually does)

[phil_20686]

I'm a little confused by the number of people who raise on 1354 but not 0364. It seems to me that:

 

(1) The alternative call in both cases is 2♣. But 2♣ is much less likely to be the right contract on 0364 than 1354.

(2) The latter hand is a better dummy for hearts, and I would be more concerned about missing 4♥ here than with 1354.

 

Can someone explain the reasoning to me here? (I would raise on both hands)

 

Because if partner gives preference to diamonds over clubs, showing a weak hand, it is more likely that you have a good diamond fit. Partner could just have a 4432 7 count, for example.

 

Alternatively, most people play that if you rebid the minor then give preference back to partners majors it shows extras. So they could be planning to do that on the grounds that a hand with a void always has extras......

[Vampyr]

Do SAYC and 2/1GF assume some form of checkback Stayman? If so, the inclusion of some of the shapes is a little puzzling.