does getting your bids out count as a pass?

[Fluffy]

[hv=pc=n&s=s32haqjt8dk65cat3&w=saq54hk9642d82cq2&n=st876h5daqjtck875&e=skj9h73d9743cj964&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=pp1hdrpp]399|300[/hv]

 

At this point on the bidding West takes away her double, and everyone starts to get all their bids away to preceed on play, then EW ask/lecture each other for passing this stupid contract, East says to partner that she could bid over 1♥XX and West says that she didn´t see the redouble (though it was a pass card).

 

 

Nobody called director and it was assumed that they had passed out 1♥XX

 

 

 

The play is really weird, diamond is led, declarer plays the ace and drops the King from hand, then cashes ♦Q&J discarding revoking discarding ♠3&2 from hand, west ruffs this and plays a spade (ruffed), diamond comes back (ruffed), and in the end declarer makes 4♥ from hand, 2♦, 2♣ for 8 tricks. How many tricks for the defence due to revoke(s)?

[barmar]

Not only was the play weird, so was that double, IMHO.

 

Although picking up the bidding cards is not the officially sanctioned way to make the final pass in an action, it's incredibly common (I admit I do it myself) and is generally understood to have that meaning. Her pass was intentional, not a mechanical error, so the auction stands. Her problem was that she didn't notice the redouble -- the way she passed is unrelated to this, and doesn't give her a way to make up for it.

 

Regarding the play, there were two established revokes. However, neither was won by the offending player -- the footnote to Law 64A2 says that dummy and declarer are not the same player for the purposes of this law. So one trick is transferred for each revoke, so declarer is deemed to have taken 6 tricks, down 1.

 

However, 64C could be invoked if the TD thinks that this isn't sufficient compensation. However, it looks OK to me. On normal play, declarer should take at least 3♥, 2♦, 2♣, making the contract. So setting them is certainly adequate compensation.

[blackshoe]

One trick (Law 64A2). The TD should consider whether to adjust the score (Law 64C).

[barmar]

That's right, but the relevant law is 64B2: No rectification "if it is a subsequent revoke in the same suit by the same player." Since declarer revoked both times in ♦, there's no rectification for the second revoke.

[mrdct]

Although picking up the bidding cards is not the officially sanctioned way to make the final pass in an action, it's incredibly common (I admit I do it myself) and is generally understood to have that meaning.

In many jurisdictions, including WBF events, picking up your bidding cards to indicate a concluding pass is officially sanctioned. For example, the WBF GCC Para 23 says, "If a player whose pass will conclude the auction removes his bidding cards from the table he is deemed to have passed".

[blackshoe]

64B2 is certainly relevant, and I did not mention it, but the relevant law as to how many tricks are transferred is 64A2.

 

Many jurisdictions? Certainly the WBF is one. Which others?

[gnasher]

Although picking up the bidding cards is not the officially sanctioned way to make the final pass in an action, it's incredibly common (I admit I do it myself) and is generally understood to have that meaning. Her pass was intentional, not a mechanical error, so the auction stands. Her problem was that she didn't notice the redouble -- the way she passed is unrelated to this, and doesn't give her a way to make up for it.

West did not intend to pass. She picked up her bidding cards because she believed that the auction had already ended.

 

If West didn't intend to pass, and her action isn't specified in the rules as constituting a pass, she hasn't passed. Thus the auction hasn't ended yet, and there are rather a lot of cards "exposed or led prior to the play period".

[barmar]

64B2 is certainly relevant, and I did not mention it, but the relevant law as to how many tricks are transferred is 64A2.

The whole reason I gave an incorrect answer earlier was because I didn't notice 64B2. I simply followed 64A2: two revokes = two transfers. That's why I think 64B2 is critical in this case, because it tells you NOT to apply the rules in 64A for the second revoke.

[blackshoe]

West did not intend to pass. She picked up her bidding cards because she believed that the auction had already ended.

 

If West didn't intend to pass, and her action isn't specified in the rules as constituting a pass, she hasn't passed. Thus the auction hasn't ended yet, and there are rather a lot of cards "exposed or led prior to the play period".

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but what of

Law 21A: No rectification or redress is due to a player who acts on the basis of his own misunderstanding.

 

The whole reason I gave an incorrect answer earlier was because I didn't notice 64B2. I simply followed 64A2: two revokes = two transfers. That's why I think 64B2 is critical in this case, because it tells you NOT to apply the rules in 64A for the second revoke.

 

Fair enough.

[Vampyr]

If West didn't intend to pass, and her action isn't specified in the rules as constituting a pass, she hasn't passed. Thus the auction hasn't ended yet, and there are rather a lot of cards "exposed or led prior to the play period".

 

If picking up all of your bidding cards doesn't constitute a pass, then I am still in the auction period of 1000+ boards.

 

As we see in threads about designating a card from dummy, sometimes accepted custom and practice is slightly different from what the laws require.

[RMB1]

At this point on the bidding West takes away her double, and everyone starts to get all their bids away to preceed on play, ... and West says that she didn´t see the redouble (though it was a pass card).

 

If picking up all of your bidding cards doesn't constitute a pass, then I am still in the auction period of 1000+ boards.

 

In England, we have a regulation which allows the TD to say that picking up the cards is a Pass.

 

7 B 11 Some players do not always complete the auction properly by laying a pass card on the table in the pass out seat. Usually this does not cause a problem. When a player acts in such a way as to indicate they have passed and an opening lead is faced they have passed. An action may be deemed by the TD to be a pass in the pass out seat (eg. General ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards).

 

In my opinion, this should only apply (picking up the cards constituting a Pass) if the player is in the habit of not making any positive action to denote a final Pass. I think the only real answer is that if you do not make any positive denotation of a a final Pass then partner should ask if the auction is over when the opening lead is made face down.

[mjj29]

64B2 is certainly relevant, and I did not mention it, but the relevant law as to how many tricks are transferred is 64A2.

 

Many jurisdictions? Certainly the WBF is one. Which others?

After I had to give a ruling on exactly this situation, so is the EBU. In my case it was the penultimate pass that was picked up, at which point they noticed the XX and called me. I decided I could only rule that picking up cards was not an action that constituted a pass and let her make another call (as it happenned, they bid to a cold game and failed to make it, so there was no damage).

 

The senior EBU directors present were evenly split on the correct ruling, we sent it to the L&E committee who said that 'actions which clearly indicate a pass' count as a pass, but only in the pass out seat - so applies to the OP, but not to my case.

[gnasher]

If picking up all of your bidding cards doesn't constitute a pass, then I am still in the auction period of 1000+ boards.

 

As we see in threads about designating a card from dummy, sometimes accepted custom and practice is slightly different from what the laws require.

I agree that if you pick up your cards in order to indicate that you are passing, that should constitute a pass. That's what happened on the 1000+ boards that you're talking about. Here, however, the player picked up her cards for a completely different reason, and had no intention of passing.

 

Suppose that I spill water on my bidding cards, then pick them up in order to dry them. Nobody would argue that this constituted a pass. I don't see why this is any different.

[campboy]

I agree that if you pick up your cards in order to indicate that you are passing, that should constitute a pass. That's what happened on the 1000+ boards that you're talking about. Here, however, the player picked up her cards for a completely different reason, and had no intention of passing.

 

Suppose that I spill water on my bidding cards, then pick them up in order to dry them. Nobody would argue that this constituted a pass. I don't see why this is any different.

In the EBU bidding box regulations, when taking a bid from the box it is apparent intent, rather than actual intent, which determines whether a call is made. I think the same should apply here. Requiring actual intent would make it impossible for opponents to tell whether the player has passed without asking "did you intend to pass?"

[bluejak]

In other jurisdictions there is some case for picking up your cards to indicate a pass, but it is difficult to justify in England where the bidding cards remain on the table until the opening lead is faced. The best one can say about this habit of picking up cards to indicate a pass is that it is impolite and unhelpful.

 

I understand that this case was not from England, but if it had been my sympathy for E/W would be zero, since West should not be picking up her cards whether passing or not, and it would be noticed if she had not passed.

[Vampyr]

In other jurisdictions there is some case for picking up your cards to indicate a pass, but it is difficult to justify in England where the bidding cards remain on the table until the opening lead is faced. The best one can say about this habit of picking up cards to indicate a pass is that it is impolite and unhelpful.

 

 

It is not uncommon for the defending side to pick up their cards when they have passed throughout.

[barmar]

OK, I agree that West did not intend to pass. However, she took action that would be construed as passing. And the only reason for this was her own inattention, not noticing that North had redoubled. So I would still rule against her. The only possible mitigating excuse I can imagine would be a vision problem (e.g. color blindness); however, players with severe visual problems usually request assistance (e.g. asking everyone to speak their bids in addition to using cards), or I expect them to examine the cards more closely (XX and P don't look at all alike).

[bluejak]

It is not uncommon for the defending side to pick up their cards when they have passed throughout.

It is not uncommon for players to do all sorts of things that are against the rules. But when such a thing matters they must expect rulings to go against them.