4SF w/ club system question

[kayin801]

My partner and I have played 4SF to game forever because it's rarely come up since we've played a strong club, but with our light openings and the limited openings we were considering switching to a forcing 1 round only scheme. There are only 4 auctions where we play it (since we play XYZ after 1D-1H-1S):

 

a) 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥

b) 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♠

c) 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦

d) 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣

 

The BWS rules for 4th suit seem to work well for our auctions (b and d are GF, a and c forcing 1 rd and you can sign off in intuitive places) but I wanted to know if anyone made any modifications for their club systems that better take advantage of limited and light openings, etc.

 

Thanks!

[straube]

Meckwell plays 1H-2S as to play. So 1H-1S, 2m-2S is GF and shows a fifth spade. With only four spades, responder would GF with 2m first. I think your other sequences should establish a GF whether you open light or not.

[awm]

We haven't done anything with the 1d auctions as we do not open particularly light there. Our 1d is overwhelmingly likely to be a weak notrinp, so opening with lighter shapely hands gets us more competitive losses (responder assumes weak NT and overestimates strength) than gains (note he can't really "raise diamonds").

 

For the 1h-1s auctions:

 

1nt is 3+ diamonds, giving a cheap 2c 4sf

2d/2s are both spade raises

 

Over 1h-1s-2c or 1h-1s-1n we use the 4th suit as invitational (rarely a stop ask) with direct bids 2nt and above being game force. This actually helps some game force auctions by clarifying degree of fit right away... but the big win is on the invites. Opener bids: step one = about 8-11 step two = 12-15 but not a Max with extra shape step three-plus = Max with extra shape, as natural as possible.

 

We now have sequences like 1h-1s-2c-2d-2h (8-11) and responder can pass or bid 2s to play. We can even stop in 2d this way if opener has reds. We also have some sequences like 1h-1s-1n-2c-2d-3d as a "serious" invite that wants game opposite 10-11 (since a weaker invite could pass 2d).

[kayin801]

Thanks for the input Adam, I'd never thought of 1H-1S-1NT being "diamonds" but I admit it makes sense, especially if you're not shy about raising with only 3 spades (which I am, but that's a separate issue).

 

I notice that we hardly ever raise diamonds as well, or even relay into it via XYZ/2-way NMF. When you have a max with diamonds (say, x, AK10xx, AK10xx, xx) do you do anything differently? I guess I feel like 1NT is inviting responder to pass a lot more often.

[awm]

Thanks for the input Adam, I'd never thought of 1H-1S-1NT being "diamonds" but I admit it makes sense, especially if you're not shy about raising with only 3 spades (which I am, but that's a separate issue).

 

I notice that we hardly ever raise diamonds as well, or even relay into it via XYZ/2-way NMF. When you have a max with diamonds (say, x, AK10xx, AK10xx, xx) do you do anything differently? I guess I feel like 1NT is inviting responder to pass a lot more often.

 

1NT there is almost forcing; we are aware that it could be a very shapely hand. It's possible to pass on an obvious misfit since opener is limited, but not something we do much of.

 

We do play 1♥-1♠-3♦ as a maximum shapely hand with the reds, but we prefer 6/5 for that sequence.

[bluecalm]

a) 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥

 

One idea here is to play "transfer 4th suit" (I am not sure about the name).

2♥ is a transfer to 2♠ to either signoff or GF with various hands (clarified by next bid).

Direct 2♠ is natural, inviting, 5+ good spades.

 

c) 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦

d) 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣

 

It's very useful to have 2 GF's here. Either use 2♠ (preferably as natural GF) as Straube suggested or use 2NT as forcing in 2nd sequence (the Polish way, better than natural but still have drawbacks).

Having only one, very space consuming, forcing bid in d) sequence is unplayable imo, even in precision (and in standard it's lol bad).

[Zelandakh]

It is probably not very useful for you but I play 1D - 1H as a relay with almost all INV+ hands so 1D - 1S is weak and natural. That means 4th suit forcing is unnecessary which allows your sequence a to be natural. Obviously your other sequences would be using the relay, so 2S in sequence b is GF and asks for a spade stopper (OK, not so different from 4th suit forcing!); 2D in sequence c is simply a relay; and 3C in sequence d is GF and agrees clubs (2D showed clubs :blink: ). Yeah, I know - completely irrelevant diversion...