1S [X] [XX] P - back to you

[aguahombre]

There, is it really that hard to express yourself without resorting to passive-aggressive mockery of modern trends? Could you try a little harder? Thanks.

O.K. Is it all right if I continue to mock my own old fashioned and minority views? I consider myself an equal opportunity mocker.

[ArtK78]

O.K. Is it all right if I continue to mock my own old fashioned and minority views? I consider myself an equal opportunity mocker.

How old fashioned are you? I started playing bridge in 1972, and the pass over the redouble meant "nothing to say" then as it still does now.

[aguahombre]

How old fashioned are you? I started playing bridge in 1972, and the pass over the redouble meant "nothing to say" then as it still does now.

Did the West hand qualify as "nothing to say", back then ---with 4 cards in the other major, a club stiff and a couple working red honors?

 

Back in 72, my views on taking out takeout doubles were becoming old-fashioned, but still in favor by a significant and prominent portion of the Bridge playing community ---not a majority.

 

I was old fashioned before I was old.

[gwnn]

O.K. Is it all right if I continue to mock my own old fashioned and minority views? I consider myself an equal opportunity mocker.

No ;). Perhaps this makes me the mockery police, but I think it would be more productive if everyone tried to simply state their views in a matter-of-fact way, without calling themselves Brontosauri or others young and restless.

 

Anyway, the west hand is an easy 2♥ bid if pass says 'nothing to say' or scramble, and I don't know what it is if pass is for penalties, but I think it is still a 2♥ bid.

[nige1]

IMO a modified Sharples approach works fine:

After (1♠) X (XX) ??

• Pass = Mild penalty suggestion with at least five of opponents' suit e.g. ♠QJxxx ♥ xx ♦ xxx ♣ xxx.
• 1N = Two places to play (alternatively: somebody's lying).
• 2♠ = Weak shapely ♥ & another.
• 2N = Weak shapely with minors.
• Other bids = natural.

After 1♠ (X) XX (P)

??

• 1N = Balanced grotty hand that you probably should not have opened e.g. ♠ QJxxx ♥ KQx ♦ QJx ♣ xx
• 2♠ = Poor hand with poor six card suit e.g. ♠ KTxxxx ♥ x ♦ Kxx ♣ QJx
• 2N = Poor hand with good suit; bits and pieces outside e.g. ♠ KQJ9xx ♥ QTx ♦ QJx ♣ x
• 3♠ = Poor hand with near solid suit e.g. ♠ AKQTxx ♥xx ♦ Qxx ♣ xx
• 2♣ = (New suit) Poor hand with a second suit e.g ♠ QJxxx ♥ x ♦ KJx ♣ KJxx
• 3♣ = (jump shift) Poor hand with good suits and more shape.♠ KQJxxx ♥ x ♦ x ♣ KJTxx
• Pass = Any sound opener. Creates a forcing pass. Neither partner can pass out an undoubled bid by opponents. With shape, you pass and pull.

On the actual hand, IMO, you should pass 1♠XX and double 2♦ for penalties.

 

I would be grateful to learn of more modern treatments -- and their rationale.

[aguahombre]

Anyway, the west hand is an easy 2♥ bid if pass says 'nothing to say' or scramble, and I don't know what it is if pass is for penalties, but I think it is still a 2♥ bid.

Yes, on this we definitely agree. And the observation that opposite the given East, 2HX would have been decidedly worse than 2DX brought out the "whole different matter" comment I made earlier.

 

If I eliminated the self mockery about being old-fashioned, I would be left with explaining why we have found the "nothing to say" pass less useful over the years.

 

1--taking out the redouble has resulted in very few penalties which we couldn't live with. The opponents seem to not have as much time to get into cooperative doubling mode.

2--taking out 1SXX erases opener's ability to show weak vs normal two-suiters.

3--we noticed, for instance, that 1mXX making two on a 6-1 trump break (white) is equal to 3nt+1 and better than minus 500 or 800.

4--I forget what #4 is, because now I am both old-fashioned and old.

[ArtK78]

Did the West hand qualify as "nothing to say", back then ---with 4 cards in the other major, a club stiff and a couple working red honors?

 

Back in 72, my views on taking out takeout doubles were becoming old-fashioned, but still in favor by a significant and prominent portion of the Bridge playing community ---not a majority.

 

I was old fashioned before I was old.

I was not commenting on West's actual hand. I was just stating what the pass should mean in a vacuum.

 

I would bid 2♥ on the West hand.

 

As for East's double, all I can say is "Wow!"

[whereagles]

If pard couldn't dbl 2D, then he probably has a doubleton spade. Say 2434 or 2524. With a singleton spade pard might have thought of dbling 2D.

 

I'm going with 3S now.

 

EDIT: saw the hand and... LOL. Anyway, pard will bid 3NT over 3S and all is well.

[han]

I agree that opener has a clear pass followed by a double. The extra strength, the quick tricks, the diamond honors and partner with at most 2 spades all call for defending. The play looks very interesting.

 

I think playing the pass as "I'm not sure" or "let's search for our best fit together" is much better than using pass for penalties at the 1-level. After the pass, doubler can bid a 5-card suit directly, or bid 1NT with more than one place to play. I wouldn't have passed 1SXX with the west hand, but when 2D comes back I would certainly pass and not correct to hearts.

 

Perhaps a direct 2H would have made it tougher for NS, should north sit for a penalty double of 2H?

[JLOGIC]

Perhaps a direct 2H would have made it tougher for NS, should north sit for a penalty double of 2H?

 

Umm, yes, he has AK AJ A and a trump. If partner wants to double them in 2H I have pretty good defense!

 

Similarly, I agree with jallerton that this is the easiest double ever of 2D. We have great defense, all the points, and it is w/w. I would expect +800 into a white game quite often, and sometimes +300 or whatever when we can't make game (with bad breaks). I would never be thinking that we might only get +100 against 2D when we have a game, it's nuts.