Stayman - 2D - 5NT?

[masse24]

Saw this one the other day and it puzzled me as I had not seen it before.

 

The bidding:

 

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 5NT

What is 5NT?

 

(hint - it's probably not what you think ;))

[Antrax]

For us it would be a quantitative invite to 6 or 7 NT, so responder has 20-22 HCP. What did I win?

[Cyberyeti]

For us it would be a quantitative invite to 6 or 7 NT, so responder has 20-22 HCP. What did I win?

Something like this, not sure of the point range but the meaning is right.

[aguahombre]

Saw this one the other day and it puzzled me as I had not seen it before.

 

(hint - it's probably not what you think ;))

What it IS, for most of us, is what Antrax and Cyber said. What you saw it used for the other day truly might not be what we think.

[Fluffy]

I would had bet americans would play this as pick a slam (minor) with 3 suiter hand, but the 20 HCP quant is what I first though about.

[kenrexford]

I would had bet americans would play this as pick a slam (minor) with 3 suiter hand, but the 20 HCP quant is what I first though about.

 

That's what I would have guessed, also. A 4-1-4-4 or 1-4-4-4 quantitative slam force.

[masse24]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk6hkj7dqj863cajt&w=sj54hqt965dt74ckq&n=sa97ha42dakc85432&e=sqt832h83d952c976&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np2cp2dp5np6cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

BINGO!

 

My first inclination was that 5NT was a Quantitative slam try, but it was "Pick-A-Slam" in a minor suit.

(Not really sure why South went through Stayman :huh: )

 

Thought it an interesting treatment.

 

It does however, give up the quantitative bid, so maybe 5♠'s as "Pick-A-Slam" might be an improvement since you do not give up the Quant 5NT?

[kenrexford]

Kind of a funky way to play opposite 3-3-3-4 in 6♣ rather than 6♦, but OK.

[Antrax]

kenrexford, the idea is to make partner declarer. That's why N went through stayman.

[kenrexford]

kenrexford, the idea is to make partner declarer. That's why N went through stayman.

 

You go through Stayman to make sure that club contracts are played by Responder but diamond contracts played by Opener? That's deep!

[myprac]

Someone who wanted to retain the quantitative bid while making this other use of 5NT available could say the "pick a slam" meaning applies only after Stayman. Would that explain the bidding sequence?

[Free]

Not sure if I'd bid this way with the South hand, but for me 5NT is pick a slam. I'd rather think he has a 4-4m, not 5-3, so opener can comfortably bid 6m on a 4 card suit (he has at least a 4 card suit in at least one of the minors).

[JLOGIC]

That's what I would have guessed, also. A 4-1-4-4 or 1-4-4-4 quantitative slam force.

 

Why limit it to 4-4 in the minors? On top of 44(14) you could simply be 4xx4, 4x4x, x44x, x4x4, etc. All of these hands will want to find a 4-4 minor suit fit in their 4 card minor if it exists. Bidding 3m with that hand type is an option but you'll never really know whether partner has 4 card support.

 

Maybe a bit convoluted for casual partnerships, but I use 5H, 5S, and 5N in this auction with joe so we can do everything (including playing the 5-3 fit when we have (42)(43) which if you play 5N as pick a slam you will not be able to do since partner will just be showing a 4 card minor looking for a 4-4).

 

Without using any bid other than 5N, then I'd say being able to play 4-4 minor suit fits with a slam force hand type is infinitely more useful than a quantitative to 7 hand type, it's way more common that you just have a slam force with a 4 card minor and even if you have 17, 6N may be no lock and 6m will often be far superior so that you can ruff.

[JLOGIC]

Also, if you are the type that plays 1N 4S as 4-4 minors quantitative, and you play delayed texas, you can play 1N 2C 2D 4S as 4-4 minors quantitative or better. You could tie in 4234 hand types to that also.

[Zelandakh]

Also, if you are the type that plays 1N 4S as 4-4 minors quantitative, and you play delayed texas, you can play 1N 2C 2D 4S as 4-4 minors quantitative or better. You could tie in 4234 hand types to that also.

I always thought it is standard to play 1NT - 4S as a Baron range ask when using Texas unless you already play a 2S response for that.

[Cyberyeti]

Why limit it to 4-4 in the minors? On top of 44(14) you could simply be 4xx4, 4x4x, x44x, x4x4, etc. All of these hands will want to find a 4-4 minor suit fit in their 4 card minor if it exists. Bidding 3m with that hand type is an option but you'll never really know whether partner has 4 card support.

 

Maybe a bit convoluted for casual partnerships, but I use 5H, 5S, and 5N in this auction with joe so we can do everything (including playing the 5-3 fit when we have (42)(43) which if you play 5N as pick a slam you will not be able to do since partner will just be showing a 4 card minor looking for a 4-4).

 

Without using any bid other than 5N, then I'd say being able to play 4-4 minor suit fits with a slam force hand type is infinitely more useful than a quantitative to 7 hand type, it's way more common that you just have a slam force with a 4 card minor and even if you have 17, 6N may be no lock and 6m will often be far superior so that you can ruff.

Habitually playing a weak no trump, hence not needing Smolen, we use 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ for finding 4-4 minor suit fits.

[Trinidad]

1NT systems that make it possible to uncover minor suit fits below the six level have not found their way to the US yet?

 

Rik

[Mbodell]

Also, if you are the type that plays 1N 4S as 4-4 minors quantitative, and you play delayed texas, you can play 1N 2C 2D 4S as 4-4 minors quantitative or better. You could tie in 4234 hand types to that also.

 

Interesting. I play both 1N 4♠ as 4-4 minors quant and delayed texas in several partnerships. I've never seen or discussed 1N 2C 2D 4S but that makes a lot of sense too.

[han]

you could simply be 4xx4, 4x4x, x44x, x4x4, etc.

 

JLOGIC, I thought you went through puppet stayman with these and then bid 4m?

[Free]

JLOGIC, I thought you went through puppet stayman with these and then bid 4m?

Doesn't that show 5m332?

[johnu]

At least the 1NT opener had a hand where 6 had some kind of reasonable play instead of being hopeless.

 

Opener could have had a max:

 

AQx

AQ

xxxx

KQxx

 

and be off the AK of diamonds.

 

or

 

QJx

Qxx

AKxx

KQx

 

and be off 2 aces. There is a recent thread discussing the merits of Gerber. At least Gerber would keep you out of slam if opener had this hand or quite a few worse ones.

 

I haven't seen anything better than George Rosenkranz's Confi and Super Confi conventions and am mystified that experienced partnerships don't play it. You can stay out of slam missing an ace and king or 3 kings where you are usually no better than 50%, and also check for trump quality in most situations.

[han]

1NT - 3C

3D - 3S

3NT - 4D

 

shows .44. .

[JLOGIC]

JLOGIC, I thought you went through puppet stayman with these and then bid 4m?

 

Obv youre kidding/trolling, but of course I would never assume special methods in the forums if not specified. Of course "special" is subject to debate, I assume 2/1 if not specified and the Cascades of the world might be offended by that, but it's "forum standard" enough that I think it's reasonable to assume some methods like 4sf, weak 2s, etc. If no context exists for a bidding problem its pretty dumb.

 

And I totally think there are more possible bids than reasonably important hand types when it comes to NT structure, so redundancy is possible. You can make a meaning for every bid but it's probably not practical when it comes to memory work vs utility depending on your biological makeup.