Zero Points Opening Bid!

[Laird]

Hello All

 

I was reading some notes on Acol issued by Durham University Bridge Club and noticed under their description for week 2 ( extremely)!D!H!S spades they gave the range 0 - 10.

 

My question... under what circumstances can you envisage a zero point opening bid?

What advantages, if any would there be apart from eating up bidding space in such a bid?

In what way is such a bid different from a psyche?

 

Is there effective defence against such bids?

 

 

B)

[bearmum]

Hello All

 

I was reading some notes on Acol issued by Durham University Bridge Club and noticed under their description for week 2 ( extremely)!D!H!S spades they gave the range 0 - 10.

 

My question... under what circumstances can you envisage a zero point opening bid?

What advantages, if any would there be apart from eating up bidding space in such a bid?

In what way is such a bid different from a psyche?

 

Is there effective defence against such bids?

 

 

B)

I can't IMAGINE opening a hand on ZERO points :P - BUT IF your system card states " weak 2's 0-10 " then you COULD open on zero ( BUT in BBO u should alert as 0-10 ) ;)

 

AND If it's on your CC as 0-10 then opening on Zero ( allowing for the fact you actually HAVE the suit you open -- like 6 to the 10[?]) AND you alert it then it CANNOT be a psyche (directors -- please correct me if I'm wrong)

 

As to what could be an effective defence I am at a loss -- except to say I THINK such an unusual system might have to make available notes for defence against it ?? (once again directior please advise) :)

[epeeist]

Bidding systems sometimes define weak two bids by high card points only, NOT including distributional points.

 

For instance, SAYC defines weak 2 bids as 5-11 high card points, whereas most other bids except NT are generally defined in "points" (which includes distributional valuation). I use SAYC as an example because I'm not too familiar with ACOL...

 

To take an extreme example, let's say I have a 2-suited hand, with a 9-card ♠ suit (missing the AKQJ) and 10987 in ♣. I would open with this hand despite having 0 high card points.

 

For the later part of your question, there have been many extended discussions about psychic bids on this board. B) If your system, as disclosed to the opponents, calls for weak 2 bids with 0-10 points, it's not psychic. It's when your bid doesn't match what your system says it should be, that it may be psychic. Usually only when it's far out of line, though -- not just shading a point :P And of course, some bids, even if disclosed to opponents, may not be allowed in some levels of play (highly unusual methods, forcing pass opening systems, multi or Polish club in some tournaments, etc.).

[Free]

I'm used to play weak openings in a range of 0-10(11) HCP. But this doesn't mean we open all our 0HCP hands...

 

It's just a way to avoid TD decisions if we would open lighter than we put on our piece of paper :P If you say "Muiderberg", then it's defined 6-11, but I've opened some with 2HCP in the past (something like Qxxxx-void-xxxxxx-xx). We explain our bids as "less than an opening", so it 'could' be 0HCP, but it seldom is ofcourse. Give me a void-xxxxx-void-xxxxxxxx and I open always 2♥ showing 0-10HCP and 5♥ and 4+m. I would hate to pass a hand like this B)

[nikos59]

Besides, you can make a game with 0 points *combined*

(admittedly, it takes some construction, but it is feasible)

so if both partners passed their zero-point hands then

a perfectly good game might be missed :)))

 

n.

[Free]

I don't think that's possible! If you could crossruff 10 tricks, ok, but you can't. You need 10 trumps, but that means you already have 1HCP :) Also, even if you would have 10 trumps with 0HCP, someone would be able to overruff you sooner or later, since you only have 3 suits to ruff, and 1 hand will ruff 2 suits, the other hand will ruff only 1 suit, and it can split maximum 4-4 :D

 

9 tricks with 0 HCP combined is the maximum I think, but with proper defense you won't even reach that I'm afraid ;)

[helium]

And who is the opps that let u play game whit 40 pts combined:))

 

 

 

lol

[nikos59]

To Free: Wanna bet?

[Free]

LOL,

 

as reply to helium: it's a pure theoretical matter, everybody should play 7NT with 40HCP combined (I don't think it's possible to lose such contract btw).

 

as reply to nikos: no, but if you find a hand, plz post it, cause it would be a REALLY interesting one.

 

I think 2 interesting hands could be found: 1 where you don't make grand with 40HCP, and one where you make game with 0HCP (and proper defense ofcourse) :D

Would probably be a hand like the one where EVERY player can make 3NT, which I can't find anymore...

[paulg]

Is there effective defence against such bids?

Treat them as standard weak 2s but be prepared to compete more aggressively with good shape.

 

I also ask my opponents beforehand about the strength of hand needed to make a serious game enquiry - for example, will a balanced 15 count typically pass?

 

To be honest it's never proved a major problem to defend against these - well no more so than standard weak 2s.

 

Paul

[twcho]

Free, of course you are wrong. Not only 40 HCP does not guarantee 7NT cold, but even you possess all the 10s still does not warrant the 7NT contract. It is simply because each hand has 7600 and the suit won't break even the combined hands possess 20 top tricks together.

[whereagles]

I used to play 5-card weak twos with a range of 0-10. While this may be statistically protected in terms of the law of total tricks, it is bad for two reasons:

 

1. A 10-point range is far too wide for partner to be able to do anything sensible after the opening bid. Remember, he'll be bidding practically at the 3-level. If the weak opening were at the 1-level, a 0-10 range might be playable, but not at the 2-level. Better to use a range of around 5-10, occasionally going a bit lower, but never less than QJTxx for a suit. Incidently, pard is not going to like it when he leads from Kx to your Jxxxx :D

 

2. The offense-to-defense ratio (ODR) of a 2-level preempt on zero points is too low. When one opens 2S on Jxxxx xx xxx xxx, one might not be making any tricks on defense, but one sure isn't going to make a lot of trick on offense either. With, say, Axx in front, you make 3 tricks on offense and 1 on defense. An ODR of 2. A preempt should show an ODR of like 4 or 5 plus. Otherwise it's just too random to be of any value for your side.

[nikos59]

To Free: For the 0-point game, please see separate thread

in "Interesting Bridge Hands".

[Fluffy]

Here is a 40 HCP combined that wont even make 4NT:

 

 

[hv=n=sakqj432hakqj43dc&s=shdakqj432cakqj43]133|200|[/hv]

[Gerben47]

Let me react to the original poster's question. It is possible to play these kinds of preempts. There is a system called OltBrink which has been played in the highest Dutch competition that uses these kinds of opening bids, but instead of 0-10 it uses 0-7.

 

An example hand can be found on my webpage. This hand occurred in the Dutch national team selections some years ago, so these were very good and very serious players.

 

Let me add that I do NOT recommend this style to anyone. It is just an example what is possible. Although you probably gain on some hands the wide range aspect of this preempt make it very hard for partner to find the right contract if he is strong, and of course there is the danger to score -1100.

 

I think one should have discipline when preempting, agreeing with partner the strength range and suit quality needed in different seats and vulnerabilities. In my style I can imagine opening some 0-point hands with a preempt but you would have to think of something like:

 

[hv=s=s2ht98765432d2c2]133|100|[/hv]

[Free]

Aaaah, the good old Lorenzo, my favorite :D I've played these for a few years, with great success! Only NV, and some adjustments (not 4333's for example), it got us great results. In one tourney we even got a 1700 and a 2000 out of 30 hands (too bad it was MP's ;) ).

 

This however is played as a destructive method, nothing constructive about it! You only need a 4 card to bid the suit, and maximum 7HCP. This makes constructive bidding very difficult, but if you can pass quickly with 18HCP in your hand, opps usually bid (most of the time to 3NT), and you get penalty Doubles :D

[whereagles]

0-7 is much more playable than 0-10. You simply assume opener has 5-7 points (more likely than 0-4) and bid accordingly. The 0-10 range is, however, untractable.

[jtfanclub]

I don't think that's possible! If you could crossruff 10 tricks, ok, but you can't. You need 10 trumps, but that means you already have 1HCP :) Also, even if you would have 10 trumps with 0HCP, someone would be able to overruff you sooner or later, since you only have 3 suits to ruff, and 1 hand will ruff 2 suits, the other hand will ruff only 1 suit, and it can split maximum 4-4 :D

 

9 tricks with 0 HCP combined is the maximum I think, but with proper defense you won't even reach that I'm afraid B)

[hv=n=s85432ht9876543dc&s=st976hdt98765432c]133|200|[/hv]

 

I'll wager 4♠ makes over half the time. Wanna take me up on that?

[Laird]

Hello All

 

..Thank you for your contributions, I now have the theoretical justification for some of my bids.

 

I always suspected that it was possible despite my partners plea for more points for some of my bids :)

 

Best wishes

 

John

[Chamaco]

 

I'll wager 4♠ makes over half the time.  Wanna take me up on that?

Good defenders will lead trumps.

 

Then your only hope to make is that both of these conditions are met:

 

1) 3-2 trump break

2) opps trump suit is blocked (AK doubleton)

 

This chance is 1/5 of 68% = roughly 13.6 %

 

actually the chance is even lower than that, if the defender holding the 3rd trump is overruffing the first round of either one of your red suits.

 

You may like to increase the chances so calculated to account for a non-trump lead(I would not hope for that), but still the chances to make game are well below 50%.

 

Of course you'll never get to play this game, as opps will be in 7 clubs or 7NT.

[nikos59]

To Chamaco:

When you have 9 trumps, a 3-2 trump break

is much less than 68%, namely 0%.

 

I wager the example hand has more than 50% odds with

9 trumps.

[Chamaco]

To Chamaco:

When you have 9 trumps, a 3-2 trump break

is much less than 68%, namely 0%.

 

I wager the example hand has more than 50% odds with

9 trumps.

:)

[Free]

I don't think that's possible!  If you could crossruff 10 tricks, ok, but you can't.  You need 10 trumps, but that means you already have 1HCP  :)  Also, even if you would have 10 trumps with 0HCP, someone would be able to overruff you sooner or later, since you only have 3 suits to ruff, and 1 hand will ruff 2 suits, the other hand will ruff only 1 suit, and it can split maximum 4-4  :D

 

9 tricks with 0 HCP combined is the maximum I think, but with proper defense you won't even reach that I'm afraid  :)

[hv=n=s85432ht9876543dc&s=st976hdt98765432c]133|200|[/hv]

 

I'll wager 4♠ makes over half the time. Wanna take me up on that?

I want a laydown game with 0 HCP :)

[jtfanclub]

Can't have a laydown...a 4-0 trump break with the AKQJ on one side is kinda tough to overcome.

[Free]

That's what I said didn't I? Still want to bet? :unsure: