6 what?

[Fluffy]

If you pick to start with 2 spades, you can then bid 3♥ over 2NT and then after partner sings off in 4♥ make a cuebid to pinpoint a problem in trumps, this will avoid a silly 6♥, but then the decision between 5♥ and 6NT will still be there.

[Zelandakh]

What's 5♠? Is that please bid 5nt to play? If so you could try 5♠-5nt-6♣ as a way of offering 6♣.

 

I think I'd expect with most of my partnerships that 5♠ was asking for specific K (and showing all the Keycards, grand try).

I would assume that 5S asks for the queen of spades. I also prefer to invert 5S and 5NT here.

 

It seems that the AA without HK hand is still possible after 2NT so I am with mike in going slow with 3C over that. On the other hand it would help to know what partner's next bids would mean to see if this is actually going to help us. Out of interest, what would 4C be over 2NT? If this were Minorwood then we could bid 4S/4NT next to ask for the HK over partner's 4D/4S which would surely give us a decent chance of getting to the best slam. This is a hand with so many options we really need to know more system details to be able to trace the optimal path of obtaining all of the required information.

[pooltuna]

6♥ is probaly the call as partner is more likely to hold helpful cards in his suit than not

[rhm]

I hope pard can figure out if 6c is:

1) to play

2) slam choice, and pard can choose the right one

3) grand try in h?

 

that seems to be alot of pressure to put on pard in the finals of the Gold Cup but an easier bid to make here in the forum. :)

1) After the 3♥ raise by responder and opener bidding nothing but ♥s to say 6♣ is "to play" sounds implausible to me.

2) Slam choice must come before grand try. It is much more important. Besides any other bid below 6♥ was here available for the unambiguous purpose of a grand try in hearts.

3) So I think "slam choice and pard can choose the right one" is clearly indicated here.

 

I can not see the pressure nor any reason for a misunderstanding.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

The problem with offering 6♣ is our ♥Q, more specifically that partner doesn't know about it. He might very well pass 6♣ with a singleton club and ♥AKxxxx.

Would you raise ♥ with a small doubleton in ♥ and solid ♣s when more or less forcing to slam?

 

I wouldn't

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mike777]

1) After the 3♥ raise by responder and opener bidding nothing but ♥s to say 6♣ is "to play" sounds implausible to me.

2) Slam choice must come before grand try. It is much more important. Besides any other bid below 6♥ was here available for the unambiguous purpose of a grand try in hearts.

3) So I think "slam choice and pard can choose the right one" is clearly indicated here.

 

I can not see the pressure nor any reason for a misunderstanding.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

 

See Frances's response.

[jallerton]

I think you can only get ♣ into the picture with a 2♠ rebid after 2♥ ( for the reasons others have stated ).

Partner will know you have at least 8 cards in the blacks.... more likely 9 cards.... and possibly 10.

1H - 2C! ( 2/1 GF )

2H - 2S

3D - 3H

4H - 5NT! ( choice of slams; forget about RKC-ask with your 22 hcp hand )

 

Even with your original auction, just bid 5NT! ( or maybe 6C would be a clearer "choice-of-slams" bid since Club length had not be clarified earlier ) directly over 4H.

 

When you say 5NT is "choice of slams", do you mean choice of small slams? If so, how do you plan to get to a grand slam? It's not obvious that partner will also cue ♦A over 3♥ on your auction.

 

I wouldn't have chosen 3♥ myself, but the player who bid it explained his reasoning to me. He wanted to be in a grand slam (presumably 7NT) opposite ♥AK and ♦A and a nice simple way to find out about this is to agree hearts then use RKCB. He was concerned that if he bid something else, it might become harder to find out about ♥AK and ♦A later.

 

In an ideal world, you want to be able to find out all of:

 

1. Whether partner has ♥J and/or a 7th heart

2. Whether partner has ♣J

3. How many clubs partner has.

4. Whether partner has ♦A

5. Whether partner has ♦Q

6. Whether partner has ♠Q

 

Maybe a series of relays would help. In the absence of a relay system I would bid a natural 2♠, but I would not be confident that I would be able to find out everything I needed to know.

[jallerton]

Ok, so the alternatives are pass, 6♥ and 6NT. Both contracts could be down from the start with the other being cold, but 6NT at least requires LHO to make the best lead for that.

 

Chances of partner having ♥AK are better than ♦A, if you drop into the mixture that he might have 7 hearts, and/or ♥J and ♥10, I think 6♥ is superior in average.

 

I agree that partner is quite likely to hold ♥AK, but even if this is the case and hence she lacks ♦A, she will probably hold ♦Q to make up her opening bid. Even if she doesn't hold ♦AQ, it will not be at all obvious for LHO to lead ♦A against 6NT if he is the owner of that card.

[hatchett]

3c

 

 

 

going down the rabbit hole. :)

 

ok what is pards bid over this?

 

I can't see how rebidding 3♣ in this sequence can be right.

If partner has xx AKJxxx AJTx x he will presumably rebid 3NT. How do we get to 7♥ now?

He is certainly not going to believe your hearts are as good as Qx.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

That's not what I meant at all :huh:. I just assumed 6♣ here would be offering the choice between 6♣ and 6♥ in case P had something like ♠x-♥AJxxxx-♦AQx-♣Jxx. Not familiar with the method of looking for a Queen for grand, tho it's probably better as many grands are hard to find without being able to discover if partner has a specific Queen :).

 

Prefer 6♥ to 6NT as P may have nothing in diamonds, tho with the hand I just gave, 6NT is better...

I don't know why folks are contemplating the Grand when off 1 key card ! ( not knowing which key card is missing ).

[mike777]

I can't see how rebidding 3♣ in this sequence can be right.

If partner has xx AKJxxx AJTx x he will presumably rebid 3NT. How do we get to 7♥ now?

He is certainly not going to believe your hearts are as good as Qx.

 

For starters partner does not rebid 2nt after 2s with your example hand he rebids 3d but even if he does not, no problem. Again we bid 2s so pard would describe his hand further.

 

Note I am trying to get to 7c or 7nt if pard does not have KH so dont bid 2nt with your example. Bidding 3d over 2s is correct, in fact your example hand is almost good enough to bid 2d over 2c. I would, your example is far far from a minimum :)

 

 

I agree that it may complicate the bidding but finding the AKH and AD is pretty easy even when clubs are trumps and we keycard in clubs. I assume after 3c Frances has a sure way to keycard with clubs are trumps even if pard rebids 3nt.

 

For me I can bid 4d over 3nt which is keycard in clubs pard shows 2 and then I can specific K ask.

[tolvyrj]

Well since 2♣ was forcing to game is see no reason why i could not bid 4♣ after 2♥, since i dont have to jump to introduce long ♣ suit, it must ( or shld :rolleyes: ) be cue bid for ♥ as trumps. Now wheter or prd bids cue in ♦, i will be better placed to judge wheter we shld play small slam in ♥ or in no-trumps.

Yes i have give up the possibility to play 6 ♣.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Well since 2♣ was forcing to game is see no reason why i could not bid 4♣ after 2♥, since i dont have to jump to introduce long ♣ suit, it must ( or shld :rolleyes: ) be cue bid for ♥ as trumps. Now wheter or prd bids cue in ♦, i will be better placed to judge wheter we shld play small slam in ♥ or in no-trumps.

Yes i have give up the possibility to play 6 ♣.

4C-jump now over 2H sets good, long ♣ as trump.... demanding cuebids.

[aguahombre]

4C-jump now over 2H sets good, long ♣ as trump.... demanding cuebids.

1H-2C

2H-4C (for reference to what we are talking about).

 

Yes, shows a long-solid club suit as trump (for now) and demands cuebids. However, the South hand as given in the OP should not do that.

[mike777]

1H-2C

2H-4C (for reference to what we are talking about).

 

Yes, shows a long-solid club suit as trump (for now) and demands cuebids. However, the South hand as given in the OP should not do that.

 

 

agree.

 

lets try and find out if pard is close to:

 

xx..AKxxxx..Axxx..x(3d over 2s)

or

 

Qx...Axxxxx...Axx..Jx(2nt over 2s) or xx...Axxxxx..AQx...Jx

or

 

Qx...AKxxxx....QTxx...x(3d over 2s)

 

I mean these are really minimum hands, pard can have more.

[Statto]

... Not familiar with the method of looking for a Queen for grand, tho it's probably better as many grands are hard to find without being able to discover if partner has a specific Queen ...

I don't know why folks are contemplating the Grand when off 1 key card ! ( not knowing which key card is missing ).

I was talking in general terms here, as 6♣ in the OP's system would have been a grand try asking for ♣Q. I can recall occasions where having a method to discover whether a specific queen is held would have allowed us to find a grand.

 

... Slam choice must come before grand try. It is much more important. ...

Interesting question. I can't recall ever offering (or being offered) a choice of suit slams after an uninterrupted bidding sequence, but them I'm more likely to notice when our methods don't work so well...

[Fluffy]

Ok, so the alternatives are pass, 6♥ and 6NT. Both contracts could be down from the start with the other being cold, but 6NT at least requires LHO to make the best lead for that.

 

Chances of partner having ♥AK are better than ♦A, if you drop into the mixture that he might have 7 hearts, and/or ♥J and ♥10, I think 6♥ is superior in average.

I agree that partner is quite likely to hold ♥AK, but even if this is the case and hence she lacks ♦A, she will probably hold ♦Q to make up her opening bid. Even if she doesn't hold ♦AQ, it will not be at all obvious for LHO to lead ♦A against 6NT if he is the owner of that card.

 

I already said 6NT even down double dummy might require a lead to put it down, but perhaps even when partner has ♥AK you might fail to ♥Jxxx when 6NT makes, this might come down to your opening style with 6322 10 HCP hands with good hearts.

 

I find it hard to find hands witout ♦A nor ♦Q for partner, I am not sure anymore that 6♥ is better, what was the winner?

[tolvyrj]

4♣ after 2♥ sets ♣ as trumps and demands cue bids from prd, really? Ok if u say so, im no expert in 2/1 bidding, but i fail to see the point in that; if 2♣ is forcing to game why wouldnt i bid just 3♣ over 2♥ if i have ♣ and no support for ♥ and rebid them after what ever prd bids on his/hers next round.

Without knowledge of where prds key cards r i have no other way to decide which slam we play than just guess.

[jallerton]

I already said 6NT even down double dummy might require a lead to put it down, but perhaps even when partner has ♥AK you might fail to ♥Jxxx when 6NT makes, this might come down to your opening style with 6322 10 HCP hands with good hearts.

 

I find it hard to find hands witout ♦A nor ♦Q for partner, I am not sure anymore that 6♥ is better, what was the winner?

 

6NT was selected at the table. Partner held x AK10xxx QJ8x Jx so 6NT was the right contract. Hearts and clubs were both 3-2 so all three slams were making on the actual layout.

 

At the other table, the auction was 2♥(8-11)-3♣-3♦-3♠-4♣-4NT-5♦-6♣-Pass

[mike777]

A very interesting hand indeed.

 

yes it seems 6nt is safer if the bidding starts out:

 

 

1h=2c

2h=2s

3d=3h

4h=4nt

5h=?

 

If pard is akxxxx in h he should have the Qd.

 

if pard is axxxxx in h and axxx in d pard should have the QS or QD

[mike777]

imps, KO match

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj5hq3dkcakq742&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1hp2cp2hp3hp4hp4np5hp]133|200[/hv]

 

1H = 5+, you open virtually all 11s with 5 hearts and most 10s with 6 hearts

2C = game forcing, natural or possibly 4333/3343

2H = 6 hearts, any range, could have 4 spades with good hearts and very bad spades, would always rebid hearts with 6-4 reds

4H = minimum opening, denies 3 key cards, if 6-4 unlikely to have 4 controls unless otherwise very minimum

4NT/5H = keycard

 

Which slam?

 

Or would you have bid differently earlier?

 

 

coming back to this very interesting hand I see that you rebid 2h with all 6-4 reds, any range.

 

this style does give you a rebid problem over 2s as you note in a later post that 3d now shows extras not just shape and a minimum. That forces you to rebid 2nt on this deal and not 3d.

 

As it turns out all roads lead to 6nt on this deal after 2s.

 

It does raise the issue of rebidding 2h with all 6-4 red hands.

[Finch]

We play 1H-2C-2D as artificial, so it's more convenient to show the 6th heart at once.

But in any case we never play the fourth suit as 'natural' it would always be artificial in some way. I don't know why I would want to bid 3D to show a 4-card suit when we won't have a fit and when 2NT to show a stop is cheaper.

[mike777]

We play 1H-2C-2D as artificial, so it's more convenient to show the 6th heart at once.

But in any case we never play the fourth suit as 'natural' it would always be artificial in some way. I don't know why I would want to bid 3D to show a 4-card suit when we won't have a fit and when 2NT to show a stop is cheaper.

 

 

 

2nt would let pard know you have xx in clubs and spades. 3d would deny that. In any event since 3d shows extras for you that is out so 2nt becomes the catchall.

 

not sure what you would bid after 2nt and then 3c but it seems easy to end up in 6nt on this deal which is better than 6h 4-1 break.