Showing 5-5 majors when pd opens 2NT

[Zelandakh]

If you're playing some form of Smolen over 2NT openers, then the auction 2NT-3♦-3♥-3♠ shows 5-5 in the majors and is forcing. But what if you're not playing Smolen (I usually play Puppet Stayman, and not any of the variations that allow you to show 5-4 hands)? Does this still show 5-5, or is it now 4=5?

If not playing Smolen then you still have 2NT - 3C; 3D - 3M available for the 5-4 hands (you just lose right-siding). There are 2 mainstream ways of using the given sequence - transferring to hearts and bidding spades. One is for 5-5 majors and the other is to agree hearts and start cue-bidding. The same goes for transferring to spades and bidding 4H incidentally.

 

Possibly the simplest way of handling a major 2-suiter without alot of system is to lose Gerber and use a 4C response for precisely this hand. This is the same as Yeti's 4D response but retains 4 level transfers. There are, of course, some more complicated alternatives which give more options but uing 4C in this way is adequate for most intermediate pairs imho.

[barmar]

If not playing Smolen then you still have 2NT - 3C; 3D - 3M available for the 5-4 hands (you just lose right-siding).

The reason we're not playing Smolen is because we play Puppet Stayman. In Puppet Stayman, that auction says that opener has at least one 4-card major, and responder has 4 of the major he didn't bid.

[Statto]

What would 4NT have meant in 2NT-3♥;3♠-4NT? If it would have been RKCB for ♠s then it would seem to be the right tool for the job: 2NT-3♥;3♠-4NT;5♦-5NT;6♣-7♥. 5♦ shows all the key cards, 6♣ shows either that King or the two other Kings (you can play this any other way and still get there), and 7♥ is pick a grand, thinking that there are 13 tricks off the top, which without bad breaks there will be, but also showing the 5-5 which will hopefully be passed on grounds of safety.

2nt=3h

3s=4nt is clearly quant, not rkc.....

 

you texas then 4nt to rkc.

Wondered, hence asked. Ok, so what about 2NT-4♥;4♠-4NT;5♦-5NT;6♣-7♥. In this case what shape is responder showing for the pick-a-grand new suit at the 7 level?

[bluecalm]

I did a lot of thinking and simulations about bidding after 2NT and I am about sure that:

a)most systems people come up with are much worse than the simplest possible

b)searching for 5M in opener hand is not important, especially at imps (you may be surprised about this but there are a lot of 10-9 deals (10 tricks for 4M, 9 for 3NT) and getting fast to 3NT makes them to misdefend often, especially on first lead on 8-9 or 8-10 hands hence it's more important at imps to just bash 3NT than it is at MP's).

c)it's important to be able to invite slam holding 6M

d)it's important to have a slam try in minor available

e)it's important to be able to show any 5-4 combination (which is general principle of bidding opposite balanced hands)

 

This leads us to following system after 2NT:

3♣ - normal stayman promising at least one 4M, then smolen or w/e for 5-4 majors; if we fancy we can add 3NT/4C responses for 4-4 in majors and min/max with retransfers to follow.

3♦ - transfer with superaccepts, after normal accept other major is slam try in M; tranfer and 4m is natural slam try 5M-4+m (and then 4NT is to play, and one other bid should be 6 card RKCB); if one partner shows 5-4+ opposite balanced hand it's good to have 6 card keycard in your system.

3♥ - as above

3♠ - minors, at least mild slam try

3NT = to play; this is very important, any system which has this as something else is bad. No engineering could overcome loses from not being able to bash 3nt and having them guess first lead

4♣/4♦ = natural slam try (then 4NT to play, others are cuebids or kickbacks depending on what you like)

4♥/4♠ = w/e you fancy

 

With 5-5 majors you bid stayman, then you have tons of options: smolen and 4H, smolen and 4S, smolen and 4m, instant 4H, instant 4S. You can accomodate every range/splinters/invites you fancy. All of those:

2NT - 3♣

3♦ - ????

 

1)3♥ and after 3NT: 4c/4d/4h/4s

2)3♠ and after 3NT: 4c/4d/4h/4s

3)4♥

4)4♠

 

Might be used for various hands with majors. It's enough space for most scientists. Maybe even some of them could be used for 5-4-3-1 shapes and slam invites. Or maybe 4H/4S could be used for 4-1-4-4 hands or w/e.

 

That could be improved by various things like:

2NT - 3C

3D - 5D = 4-4-0-5 which never comes up but make all shapes biddable ;)

 

This doesn't require memory work and I think it's better than anything else available as of now. I went trough tons real and simulated hands to prove it to myself.

About the only leak of this system are (3-1)-5-4 hands good enough for game or stronger. This is small leak because:

a)those hands are rare

b)it's even more rare to find 5M in partner's hand fitting our 3 card fragment

c)if we don't have 8card M fit then we are much better of than puppeters. After puppet they know something about clubs (dbl or not) and something about opener majors; they will make much better 1st lead decisions with that information.

 

Gains from c) are significant and frequent. They are more valuable than rare loses from missed 4M contracts.

In fact, 5M-3-3-2 in 20-21 range opposing 3-1-5-4/3-0-5-5 resulting in 8 card M fit is so rare occurrence most bridge player will never see it in actual play during their entire bridge life.

[Zelandakh]

Perhaps my previous post was too simplistic. The answer when playing Puppet is that it depends on which hand types you want to include in your 3C response. For example, I play

 

2NT

===

3C = modified Puppet

3D = 5+ hearts

3H = 5+ spades

3S = 5+ clubs

3N = to play

4C = 6+ diamonds

4D = 6+ hearts, puppet to 4H

4H = 6+ spades, puppet to 4S

4S = Baron range ask

4N = puppet to 5C

5C = puppet to 5D

 

--------

2NT - 3C

========

3D = 4 hearts and/or 3-4 spades

... - 3H = asks if 4 spades

... - 3S = shows 4 hearts, denies 4 spades

... - 3N = 4-4 majors, NF

... - 4C = 4-4 or better majors, SI

... - 4D = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, to play 4M or ask key cards

... - 4H = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds

... - 4S = 5 diamonds, 4 clubs

3H = 5 hearts

3S = 5 spades

3N = 2-3 hearts, 2 spades

 

------------

2NT - 3D; 3H

============

3S = cog(3NT/4H) or clubs or strong 1-suited slam try

3N = 5 hearts, 4 spades, NF

4C = diamonds

4D = 5-5 or better majors, SI

4H = mild 1-suited slam try

 

Like bluecalm I think it is important to have 1-suited slam tries available. The system above has both mild and strong 1-suited slam tries for both majors. Similarly, any 5-4 combination is showable where it needs to be (you do not need to show the 4 card suit when Opener denies a 4 card suit). I also agree with him that 3C is bid too often by most pairs playing Puppet Stayman. However, unlike him I think that this is not a negative if you remove the unsuitable hands first. Sometimes the 5th trump opposite allows for a slam try, for example. The last point he made I find a little confusing since I do not know of any 2NT structure that does not have a minor suit slam try available. However, the above does have slam tries included for 5-4, 5-5 and 1-suited minor hands. 4M5m hands are expected to check for a major suit fit first, although with a bad major suit and a good minor suit it is usually better to play in the minor suit slam where there is a double fit.

 

To the OP, I am not really sure what you want here now. I had the impression initially that you were looking for simple solutions. The simplest solution (as I gave above) is to play a 4C response as both majors. Then you can use 2NT - 3D; 3H - 3S as 5♥4♠ and either a 3S or 3NT response (or a better Puppet method) for 5♠4♥. This method has its disadvantages - inter alia lots of wrong-siding and no strong slam try in spades - but is simple. For more complex methods see above. If you are unsure of how to handle basic hand types such as 5-4/5-5 majors using Puppet then you are far better off playing normal Stayman. Blue's method is ok but I would definitely prefer to move the single-suited club hand into 3S and play 4 level transfers.