A simple question about Stop! cards

[S2000magic]

I hope that this is the right place to ask this; mods: please move it if it is not.

 

In last night's club game I made a preemptive bid (a jump raise after an overcall), putting the Stop! card on the table before my bid. My LHO immediately passed, while the Stop! card was still on the table.

 

This is the second player I've encountered at this club who has ignored the Stop! card. (I'm told that the first teaches bridge.)

 

The question isn't so much whether there's any redress - I suppose that I could call the TD and ask him to admonish the offender - but whether anyone here has seen a successful program to educate players on the meaning of the Stop! card.

 

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

 

(Note: I'm rather a newbie at this club, so I cannot - at least, yet - suggest holding classes in active ethics. And even if I could, I doubt that those who need tehm the most would attend.)

[schulken]

It happens all the time. The best example I have seen was playing against an experienced TD who was making a jump raise. When she placed the stop card on the table ahead of her bid, she announced, "Stop. Please wait." She placed her bid on the table, waited several seconds, and then returned the stop card to her bid box. While a bit pedantic, ACBL's Bid Box Regulations place responsibility on the jump bidder to gain LHO's attention and her announcement accomplished its goal.

 

At the risk of sounding pedantic myself, I would point out that my understanding is that the stop card is designed to protect the opponents from a BIT issue, not to alert their partner, although it accomplishes the same thing if everyone is paying attention.

[S2000magic]

At the risk of sounding pedantic myself, I would point out that my understanding is that the stop card is designed to protect the opponents from a BIT issue, not to alert their partner, although it accomplishes the same thing if everyone is paying attention.

Absolutely correct. It sounds as though you and I take active ethics equally seriously. I wish everyone did.

[blackshoe]

Practically speaking, the Stop Card (or spoken "skip bid", for that matter) procedure in the ACBL is an epic fail.

 

The procedure, using bidding boxes, is that the skip bidder places the stop card on the table, making sure his LHO sees it. He then makes his call. He then immediately picks up the stop card and puts it back in the box. LHO is responsible for ensuring that he pauses for about 10 seconds, while ensuring that he gives every appearance that he is considering his hand and his call.

 

In practice, nobody follows the procedure. Some of us try, but bad habits are hard to overcome. Most people just bid immediately, unless they really do have a problem. Some obviously count out ten seconds or so, and then bid. Some skip bidders leave the card out for five or six seconds and expect LHO to refrain from calling until it's picked up. No amount of education seems to help. I suspect that if you started penalizing failure to follow the procedure, all that would do is cause a lot of people to quit playing.

 

What can be done about it? No idea. I wouldn't be surprised if the ACBL eventually just gives up and abandons the procedure. :unsure:

[kgr]

While a bit pedantic, ACBL's Bid Box Regulations place responsibility on the jump bidder to gain LHO's attention and her announcement accomplished its goal.

I'm surprised by this. I thought that the Stop Card didn't have any legal implication and that Opps should wait after a jump bid, with or without Stop Card.

[blackshoe]

Not sure what you mean by "legal implication" but while it's true that LHO should wait whether the stop card is used or not, it is still an infraction of the regulation to fail to use the stop card. The regulation uses the word "should" in "should use the stop card" or words to that effect, and according to the laws, the use of "should" implies that failure to do it is an infraction of law. See the Introduction to the Laws. And yes, the Introduction the Laws' discussion of these wordings applies equally to regulations.

[wyman]

Combining threads here (re: stop card and re: reserving rights).

 

Is it appropriate to announce immediately that you are reserving your rights if LHO shotguns his call over your skip bid, as you might if LHO were to take 45 seconds before passing?

[S2000magic]

Is it appropriate to announce immediately that you are reserving your rights if LHO shotguns his call over your skip bid, as you might if LHO were to take 45 seconds before passing?

I'm not sure, but your question brings another question to mind: would I be allowed to reserve my (our) rights at that point, or would I have to wait until it's my turn to call?

[wyman]

I'm not sure, but your question brings another question to mind: would I be allowed to reserve my (our) rights at that point, or would I have to wait until it's my turn to call?

 

Anyone is allowed to draw attention to an irregularity during the auction period. I don't see why I wouldn't be allowed to say something.

[Mbodell]

FWIW I advanced in the 0-5000 spingold partially as a result of TD admonishing a player for ignoring stop card. It was a long team match, and the opponent ignored the stop bid several times. My teammates asked him not to the first time, called the TD the second time, and on the TD call for the third time the player insulted the TD and picked up a -3 IMP penalty. We won the match by 2 IMP (including the penalty).

[AlexJonson]

It's amusing in a way that the EBU regulations say the bidder has to keep the stop card out for a specific time.

 

That would solve several of your problems when you are declarer (few attempt to play with the stop card on the table).

 

It wouldn't solve any of your problems when you are defending and declarer 'flashes' the card and puts it away.

 

Personally I don't care whether we have these regulations or not (whatever variant) but I very much like a predictable rhythm of play where people stop when they should, alert when they should etc.

[S2000magic]

FWIW I advanced in the 0-5000 spingold partially as a result of TD admonishing a player for ignoring stop card. It was a long team match, and the opponent ignored the stop bid several times. My teammates asked him not to the first time, called the TD the second time, and on the TD call for the third time the player insulted the TD and picked up a -3 IMP penalty. We won the match by 2 IMP (including the penalty).

Adherance to proprieties shouldn't need to be be enforced with penalties.

 

Unfortunately, adherance to proprieties needs to be enforced with penalties.

 

It's nice to hear that the penalty was just enough to make a difference; perhaps it made a difference.

 

Congratulations on your advancement. (That's sincere, not sarcastic.)

[Vampyr]

 

The procedure, using bidding boxes, is that the skip bidder places the stop card on the table, making sure his LHO sees it. He then makes his call. He then immediately picks up the stop card and puts it back in the box. LHO is responsible for ensuring that he pauses for about 10 seconds, while ensuring that he gives every appearance that he is considering his hand and his call.

In practice, nobody follows the procedure. Some of us try, but bad habits are hard to overcome. Most people just bid immediately, unless they really do have a problem. Some obviously count out ten seconds or so, and then bid. Some skip bidders leave the card out for five or six seconds and expect LHO to refrain from calling until it's picked up. No amount of education seems to help. I suspect that if you started penalizing failure to follow the procedure, all that would do is cause a lot of people to quit playing.

The problem with all of this is that the person who is supposedly given time to think cannot also make sure his hesitation is of the proper length. The person using the card should have this responsibility. There is a solution for non-compliance by LHO -- block his bidding cards with the STOP card. I have often been tempted to do this.

 

 

What can be done about it? No idea. I wouldn't be surprised if the ACBL eventually just gives up and abandons the procedure. :unsure:

 

It would not be the first time the non-observant dog has wagged the ACBL's regulatory tail.

[blackshoe]

The problem with all of this is that the person who is supposedly given time to think cannot also make sure his hesitation is of the proper length. The person using the card should have this responsibility. There is a solution for non-compliance by LHO -- block his bidding cards with the STOP card. I have often been tempted to do this.

 

 

 

It would not be the first time the non-observant dog has wagged the ACBL's regulatory tail.

 

Sure the LHO of the skip bidder can do both. I do it all the time. About the dog and his tail, that was pretty much my point. B-)

[Vampyr]

Sure the LHO of the skip bidder can do both. I do it all the time. About the dog and his tail, that was pretty much my point. B-)

Although now I see that I screwed it up -- obviously it is supposed to be the tail wagging the dog!

[blackshoe]

Ah, well. At least I understood what you meant. :D

[aguahombre]

FWIW I advanced in the 0-5000 spingold partially as a result of TD admonishing a player for ignoring stop card. It was a long team match, and the opponent ignored the stop bid several times. My teammates asked him not to the first time, called the TD the second time, and on the TD call for the third time the player insulted the TD and picked up a -3 IMP penalty. We won the match by 2 IMP (including the penalty).

I keep forgetting to say something about your high finish, which I read in the ACBL Bulletin. I am sure you did some other good things besides just following regs and the opponents not doing so.

[bluejak]

Is it appropriate to announce immediately that you are reserving your rights if LHO shotguns his call over your skip bid, as you might if LHO were to take 45 seconds before passing?

Certainly.

[Fluffy]

I´ve been experimenting throwing the stop card into LHO´s bidding area so LHO would have to put his bid on top of the stop card if he was to bid quickly. So far no success (my aim is not good enough)

[Fluffy]

In practice, nobody follows the procedure. Some of us try, but bad habits are hard to overcome. Most people just bid immediately, unless they really do have a problem. Some obviously count out ten seconds or so, and then bid. Some skip bidders leave the card out for five or six seconds and expect LHO to refrain from calling until it's picked up.

Here we have another group who pick pass on the first second, then wait 10 seconds with it in their hand before placing it. I think the problem is that the people don´t understand what the stop card is for, what problem it was designed to solve.

 

 

For what its worth, my experience with bad players is that even when someone bids as if there was no Stop!, the other gains less info from that, perhaps because it is more difficult to elaborate. Remember that most (almost every) people who cheat from UI do not do it on purpose.

 

Even with perfect procedure I think for many players with usual partners it would be possible for them to conclude if partner is thinking on bidding or just waiting for the time to pass just looking at corporal expression.

[phil_20686]

The stop card doesn't seem to do anything. Its normally super easy to tell if partner is thinking or not. If not, they often put their cards down, stare at the ceiling, rock on their chair impatiently etc etc. If they are thinking they study their cards, look pensive etc. I.e. it doesn't actually effect UI at all, it just gives the appearance of doing so.

 

Secondly, people who use the stop cards religiously are super annoying in RL. I understand their point on the first round, but rapidly gts to the point where you are jumping to slam after 3 rounds of cue bidding and a little old lady looks over her spectacles at you and refuses to pass for 15 seconds. I find it very vexing when people do this when there is zero chance of then actually having a bid. I think the stop card regulations should be changed to reflect this. In fact I think they should just be got rid of, they don't actually help.

[mjj29]

The stop card doesn't seem to do anything. Its normally super easy to tell if partner is thinking or not. If not, they often put their cards down, stare at the ceiling, rock on their chair impatiently etc etc. If they are thinking they study their cards, look pensive etc. I.e. it doesn't actually effect UI at all, it just gives the appearance of doing so.

Well, they're not following the regulations correctly. I always try to look like I'm thinking for those ten seconds, studying my cards, etc (although, I'll admit that I've not checked with partner whether or not I succeed).

[phil_20686]

Well, they're not following the regulations correctly. I always try to look like I'm thinking for those ten seconds, studying my cards, etc (although, I'll admit that I've not checked with partner whether or not I succeed).

 

Basically everyone has mannerisms that let you know when they are thinking. I mean, maybe at WC level there is mileage in trying not to like you are thinking, but not really below that.

[aguahombre]

My partner has UI anyway; she knows I don't think.

[WellSpyder]

My partner has UI anyway; she knows I don't think.

Isn't that AI, since I assume it is knowledge derived from your legal actions at the table? :) Of course, it must be disclosed properly....