Tollemache Qual 2 (EBU)

[VixTD]

[hv=pc=n&s=sajhakj98643djc83&w=sk76htdt82ckqj965&n=sq8542hq5da654ct2&e=st93h72dkq973ca74&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p3np4cp4hp4sp5dp5hppp]399|300[/hv]

Inter-county teams-of-eight, cross-IMPs -> VPs

 

3NT (alerted) = 13-16 pts with a long major

4♣ = request to bid one step below the major held

4♥ = forgotten the system

 

Result: 5♥(S)-1, NS -100

 

EW called the TD (again, not me) at the end of play, and asked for a ruling. Can you see any reason to adjust the score?

[BunnyGo]

I am not a TD, but why is North bidding 5♥? Is it a bid to accommodate his partner's misbid? Otherwise it seems like a strange bid.

[jnichols]

And why is South bidding 5♦?

[campboy]

I think we need to know more about the methods. If, for example, 4♠ is an absolute signoff in this sequence (as seems like a sensible agreement) then 5♦ makes it clear that South has misbid in some way.

 

I don't think there can be any problem with the 5♦ bid itself, since South doesn't have UI and can't be fielding anything.

[Oof Arted]

mmmm

 

James its not the same ruddy pair forn your nuber 1 is it

 

If so 60/30 em

[RMB1]

3NT (alerted) = 13-16 pts with a long major

4♣ = request to bid one step below the major held

4♥ = forgotten the system

 

It is not clear if these were responses to questions or just a description of the calls.

 

I assume that only 3NT was alerted and no explanations were given during the auction, so North/South had no UI.

 

... in which case the only adjustment would be a fielded misbid for AVE-/AVE+,

but it looks like NS have already lost the comparisons by more than the relevant amount.

Edited November 29, 2011 by RMB1

[Cyberyeti]

Looks like no case for adjustment unless some other UI was floating around.

 

4♠/5♦ are just cues from S's point of view and 5♥ a signoff missing a club control.

 

Why N bid 5♥ is less clear and I'd like to hear his version of why, but I suspect since 4♠ looks like a signoff, he may have diagnosed what happened when partner bid over it.

[billw55]

Result: 5♥(S)-1, NS -100

 

EW called the TD (again, not me) at the end of play, and asked for a ruling. Can you see any reason to adjust the score?

eh, I dont understand some players. Ops botched their auction and handed over an ice cold vulnerable game, at IMPs even. What more can they want?

[Pig Trader]

mmmm

 

James its not the same ruddy pair forn your nuber 1 is it

 

If so 60/30 em

 

No - This was from a different group - Honest, Guv!

 

Barrie :rolleyes:

[AlexJonson]

It is not clear if these were responses to questions or just a description of the calls.

 

I assume that only 3NT was alerted and no explanations were given during the auction, so North/South had no UI.

 

... in which case the only adjustment would be a fielded misbid for AVE-/AVE+,

but it looks like NS have already lost the comparisons by more than the relevant amount.

 

Is the 5H still treated as a fielded misbid, if there was no UI, and a concealed understanding is vanishingly unlikely?

[RMB1]

Is the 5H still treated as a fielded misbid, if there was no UI, and a concealed understanding is vanishingly unlikely?

 

I was just trying to focus in on what the issues were, not suggesting that there was necessaruily a fielded misbid.

 

We could rule red fielded misbid if we thought the only reason for 5♥ was a concealed implicit agreement that 4♥ could be long ♥ (presumably, an implicit agreement based on opener having forgotten before).

Edited November 29, 2011 by RMB1

[Ant590]

As other posters have commented, it seems that the following situation could be possible:

 

4♣:

North "transfer to your major"

South "bid your major"

 

4[hearts}:

South "this is my major"

North "partner has spades"

 

4♠:

North "I want to play here opposite your spade hand"

South "Cuebid agreeing hearts"

 

5♦:

South "Cooperating with the cuebidding auction, highlighting club issue"

North "WTF, either partner has slam try after making a limited opening, or he's forgotten system"

 

5♥:

North "Guess he's forgotten system"

South "Ok, neither of us have a club control, lets hope this isn't -1"

 

However, there seem to be two questions:

(a) Can slam tries me made after the 4♣ bid?

(b) Is the case that responder can make slam tries, but opener can't?

 

I wouldn't feel comfortable making a ruling until hearing NS's account of the auction, and the above questions. It could be the case of a fielded misbid, and North perhaps should have continued to bid 5♠ etc?

[Finch]

I agree with RMB1 that you might consider ruling fielded misbid, but NS have already got a far worse result than av+/av- so I would rule the result stands. Unless there was some explicit UI at the table, North's 5H bid is simply catering for a system screw-up, which indeed has happened. I can't see how EW can ask for more.

[bluejak]

Is the 5H still treated as a fielded misbid, if there was no UI, and a concealed understanding is vanishingly unlikely?

No, but in this case it is quite likely: it just means he has forgotten before! :)

[phil_20686]

I cant understand any adjustment here. Seems like south's bidding is beyond reproach - he thought they were cue bidding hearts and respected the 5 level sign off.

 

To north souths bidding clearly reveals the misunderstanding - he basically appears to have opened 3N with a hand that can drive slam on its own when I havent promised any values, so its pretty clear he has forgotten and must think 4S is a slam move in hearts. Since that is AI, I can bid 5h.

[phil_20686]

No, but in this case it is quite likely: it just means he has forgotten before! :)

 

If they had a CPU north would have passed 4H....

[VixTD]

Perhaps this one wasn't so interesting, as the only problem is whether there's been a fielded misbid, and as many of you have pointed out, EW haven't been damaged if there has, but I was interested to know what you think of South's actions. Like Phil, I couldn't see anything wrong with South's bidding if he was trying to cue-bid and then giving up when North denied a club control, but he might have just been making a bid that he feels is most likely to elicit a 5♥ response from North so he can pass safely. I too would like to have asked NS why they bid the way they did; there may have been an innocent explanation.