Tollemache Qual 1 (EBU)

[gordontd]

In bridge all over, a heart bid is used to transfer to spades or a diamond bid to transfer to hearts. (Note the use of the verb "to transfer".)

Indeed so. And in the original post, we are told that the explanation given was that the player should transfer to the major suit that she holds. When she then bid hearts, it seems far from clear to me that her suit was spades.

[phil_20686]

I am literally amazed at people who think this explanation can be misunderstood. I have used methods where a relay "asks me to transfer to my suit", everywhere from the Peebles Congress in Scotland to the Jnr Euro chamionships and no one has ever misunderstood such an explanation.

 

If I had been north, and had held a reasonable spade suit, that for some reason I didn't bid the first time, and had passed 4h expecting to dble 4S and it had been passed on this explanation, I would have immediately called the director on the grounds that 4h was not the transfer it was described as. And I would have expected to win the ruling easily, a transfer being a bid that does not show the suit bid.

 

I heard about this by email from some of my friends playing in the Tolle, and we were agreed that the original ruling was ridiculous, "WTF? What do they think transfer means" was one response. People who are arguing about the verb usage are absurd: If I say "Partner is transferring to hearts", it obviously means he has made some bid (that isn't hearts) that shows hearts and asks me to bid hearts. If the auction is 1N P 2H natural, I do not say "partner is transferring to hearts" which is the usage suggested by bluekak.

[phil_20686]

Indeed so. And in the original post, we are told that the explanation given was that the player should transfer to the major suit that she holds. When she then bid hearts, it seems far from clear to me that her suit was spades.

 

The explanation given was that opener would transfer to her major in response to the 4C bid - what is unclear about that?

 

By any normal definition "making a transfer" means bidding a suit that is not the suit she holds.

[Trinidad]

In bridge all over, a heart bid is used to transfer to spades or a diamond bid to transfer to hearts. (Note the use of the verb "to transfer".)

Indeed so. And in the original post, we are told that the explanation given was that the player should transfer to the major suit that she holds. When she then bid hearts, it seems far from clear to me that her suit was spades.

Fill in:

Explanation: "I should transfer to my major."

I bid hearts.

Therefore, I am transferring to ...

 

Keep in mind (as you agreed yourself):

indeed,

a heart bid is used to transfer to spades or a diamond bid to transfer to hearts

 

But perhaps it might be a good idea to put up a warning sign at the door:

 

Warning to all players:

Please be advised that the field that you are about to enter is of very mixed standard. Though your opponents, supposedly, are the strongest players in their county, some counties are situated so far from the civilized world London that the use of otherwise common bridge language (e.g. "transfer", "game forcing", and others) has not permeated to these remote locations. Therefore, special care should be taken whenever one tries to explain a convention or treatment to a savage a rural an opponent speaking with an accent that is different (however slightly) from the Queen's English.

 

Thanking you for your understanding and wishing you a peasant pleasant tournament,

 

EBU

 

Rik

[gordontd]

The explanation given was that opener would transfer to her major in response to the 4C bid - what is unclear about that?

 

By any normal definition "making a transfer" means bidding a suit that is not the suit she holds.

Nothing that I heard or have since seen written suggests that she said "it asks me to make a transfer to my major". Had she said that, I doubt we would be discussing this.

 

When my partner responds 2H to my 1NT opening bid, what do I do? I transfer to spades, as requested.

 

And, in answer to Rik's point above, although it is common that hearts are a transfer to spades, I also play in some situations (especially at the four level) that clubs transfer to hearts and diamonds to spades.

[gnasher]

Trinidad, are you aware that Gordon is the manager of London's most civilised bridge club? That makes it hard to dismiss his views as a dialectic quirk or rustic idiocy.

[jnichols]

How strange!

 

When this thread was staqrted a large majority of the people who have posted to it thought that the explaination of the 4♣ bid was quite clear. )Myself included.)

 

A small minority apparently thought the explaination was unclear. They are quite clearly correct since half of the majority are centain it meant on thing and half thought it meant something else.

 

Perhaps not so strange - we seem to do this a lot

[phil_20686]

Nothing that I heard or have since seen written suggests that she said "it asks me to make a transfer to my major". Had she said that, I doubt we would be discussing this.

 

When my partner responds 2H to my 1NT opening bid, what do I do? I transfer to spades, as requested.

 

 

No, partner transferred to spades, you completed the transfer. He is transferring, you are completing. Simples.

[phil_20686]

Trinidad, are you aware that Gordon is the manager of London's most civilised bridge club? That makes it hard to dismiss his views as a dialectic quirk or rustic idiocy.

 

Most Civilised? If “Art is the signature of civilizations.”, then I'm afraid the yellow decor quite rules it out...

[gordontd]

Most Civilised? If “Art is the signature of civilizations.”, then I'm afraid the yellow decor quite rules it out...

You're welcome to play in the pink room if you prefer. :)

[phil_20686]

You're welcome to play in the pink room if you prefer. :)

 

It seems rude for young people to sit in stationary seats, so am normally EW when I play.

[gordontd]

It seems rude for young people to sit in stationary seats, so am normally EW when I play.

So you get the benefit of both colour schemes.

[phil_20686]

So you get the benefit experience of both colour schemes.

[Trinidad]

Trinidad, are you aware that Gordon is the manager of London's most civilised bridge club? That makes it hard to dismiss his views as a dialectic quirk or rustic idiocy.

No, I was not aware of that. Neither would I dismiss his views as idiotic or dialectic. But the fact that he is the manager of London's most civilised bridge club does add another dimension to my post.

 

The politically incorrect image that I painted of countryside folks that don't understand elementary bridge phrases is not mine. I took it from Mike Amos' post (see below) and exagerated it to make a point (which I may or may not have succeeded in): The fact that the word "transfer" is explained in the OB glossary as a noun and not as a verb doesnot mean that the meaning of the word "transfer" when used as a verb would be unclear to anyone with a decent knowledge of bridge and English.

 

(This -by the way- doesn't mean that I don't believe EW misunderstood the explanation. I do believe that West misunderstood. In this case, I just think that West understood something that wasn't said. That is too bad, because it let to a silly result, but it is not caused by misinformation, because the information given was correct. And I think that West would realize that if he would repeat the explanation and think about the meaning.)

 

Rik

 

Firstly comments about playing ability - I don't know who the EW pair were or the county they came from - I was a TD at this event but not directly involved in the ruling or in managing the group in which this case occurred. The teams in this event vary enormously in skill and experience. Some English counties can field teams which comprise mostly internationals and very experienced tournament players. Other counties have only a few hundred members and their teams are made up of players who mostly play club and local events. I think it extremely likely that the EW had NOT come across this method before.

[campboy]

Nothing that I heard or have since seen written suggests that she said "it asks me to make a transfer to my major". Had she said that, I doubt we would be discussing this.

 

When my partner responds 2H to my 1NT opening bid, what do I do? I transfer to spades, as requested.

So the question is: does "transfer", as a verb, mean "make a transfer" or "complete a transfer".

 

Before this thread I have never heard anyone use "transfer" in the second sense. I have heard it used in the first lots of times.

 

The Bridge World glossary seems to back me up.

Transfer

(1) (noun) a bid that shows length in a different suit;

(2) (noun) a call that asks partner to make a certain call regardless of his holding; [in this usage, also called Puppet.]

(3) (verb) to use a transfer (meaning 1);

(4) (verb) to remove protection in a suit from one opponent and give it to the other;

(5) (adjective) a squeeze involving a transfer (meaning 4).

[gordontd]

So the question is: does "transfer", as a verb, mean "make a transfer" or "complete a transfer".

Oh, I agree the first meaning is far more common. But in the context of the explanation, as given to me by the player the next morning, I understood it the other way until she gave me further guidance - which I don't think she did to the players at the table. Which is why I think the explanation was not really good enough.

[campboy]

I think it is unreasonable to expect N/S to be aware that it has ever been used with the second meaning by anyone. I certainly was not.

[gordontd]

I think it is unreasonable to expect N/S to be aware that it has ever been used with the second meaning by anyone. I certainly was not.

I think it's reasonable to expect them to ensure their opponents have understood their explanation. Since the pair at the table, the TD's at the event, and David Stevenson and I among others, didn't, I think they've probably fallen short of that.

[Trinidad]

I think it is unreasonable to expect N/S to be aware that it has ever been used with the second meaning by anyone. I certainly was not.

I think it's reasonable to expect them to ensure their opponents have understood their explanation. Since the pair at the table, the TD's at the event, and David Stevenson and I among others, didn't, I think they've probably fallen short of that.

If a player (or a TD, or DS, or GordonTD) attaches a meaning to a phrase that this phrase simply doesn't have ("to transfer to" does not mean "to complete a transfer"*) then that is entirely the responsibility of this player (or ...).

 

Fortunately, the AC, presumably with members who have read (and potentially written) a bridge book or two, understood this too.

 

Rik

 

*Or can you quote me a passage from an established bridge book, published before the Tollemache Qualifier, where the verb "to transfer" is used to mean "to complete a transfer"? It didn't take me long to find a quote where "transfer" is used as a verb, meaning "making a transfer bid" (emphasis mine):

Transfers over doubles of one notrump

A four-suit escape method. A redouble is a transfer to clubs. 2♣ transfers to diamonds, 2♦ to hearts and 2♥ to spades.[]

(The word "transfer" was not used as a verb under "Transfer bids", "Transfer opening three bids", "Texas convention", "Jacoby transfer bids" or "Four-suit transfer bids".)

 

I would be particularly impressed if you would be able to find a quote stating that "2♥ transfers from 2♦".

[Vampyr]

If a player (or a TD, or DS, or GordonTD) attaches a meaning to a phrase that this phrase simply doesn't have ("to transfer to" does not mean "to complete a transfer"*) then that is entirely the responsibility of this player (or ...).

 

But... in England the word transfer is not used as clearly as it is in some other places. For example, Jacoby transfers are referred to as "red suit transfers" rather than "major suit transfers". They are taught this way by bridge teachers, and someone can easily believe that the essence of a transfer is "transferring from" rather than "transferring to". Perhaps this seems like gibberish and it probably is; what I am trying to say is that in common parlance, and not only among inexperienced players, the term "transfer" is not well understood.

[StevenG]

I think that at club level in England, many ordinary players would explain a simple tranfer sequence, say 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥, as something like "2♦ - I'm making a transfer bid to hearts", and "2♥ - I'm transferring to hearts".

 

I don't know if this fact (if it is!) is relevant to county "A" players for a "minor" county, who will be at least very experienced tournament players, and rather more knowledgable than the players I am talking about. However, I'm aware that most of the English players who are saying the explanation is clear seem to be young players with a background in University bridge (not the typical environment), whereas those who oppose that view are experienced TDs with a good knowledge of how regular tournament players think.

[mrdct]

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1n2h(Hearts%20and%20a%20minor)p2n(%21)p3cppp]133|100[/hv]

So in this auction are there people in the UK who would describe 2NT as "that asks me to transfer to my minor"?

[Pig Trader]

So in this auction are there people in the UK who would describe 2NT as "that asks me to transfer to my minor"?

 

If someone were to do so, I would understand perfectly!

 

Barrie

[gordontd]

I just asked three people at the club what they thought the original sequence & explanation showed: the first, a 26 year-old regular tournament player, looked at me as though I was mad for asking, but when pushed to answer the question said that of course it showed a weak-two in hearts. The other two were both familiar with the mechanism, and were equally clear that of course it showed what it did. So I won't get caught out by this again, but I certainly wouldn't describe it that way if I were to play it.

[mrdct]

I'm pretty sure that this is a peculiarity limited to the UK where in some circles it is evident that "bid" and "transfer" mean the same thing which is perhaps a function of other non-bridge usages of the word "transfer" such as an example given up-thread of transfering to the bus to London which wouldn't be common usage of that term in my part of the world. I'm fairly confident that I would never come across a person at the bridge table in Australia who wouldn't understand "that asks me to transfer to my major", but I will be on the lookout for any obviously inexperienced opponents and will be extra careful to make sure they understand what I'm saying.