ATB

[rhm]

[hv=pc=n&s=s3h92dakj73ct7654&w=st2hqj65dt62caqj8&n=sakq87654h87d84c2&e=sj9hakt43dq95ck93&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1h2d2n4s5hpp5sppp]399|300|2NT heart fit, invitational or better [/hv]

 

This happened yesterday in an IMPs pairs game.

5♠ went down one, while 5♥ would be down at least 3 and could be down 5

How would you assign the blame?

 

Rainer Herrmann

[twoshy]

Hard to believe this is an A/E problem when both East and South were on crack.

[Fluffy]

south gets the trophy for the worst bid

[ArtK78]

The criticism of South's 2♦ bid is extremely harsh. He chose to bid his AKJxx suit (which makes a lot of sense for lead direction purposes should EW wind up in spades or notrump by West) as opposed to showing both minors or passing. How is this such a terrible idea?

 

The 5♥ bid by East was certainly from another planet.

 

Is South really supposed to hit 5♥? He doesn't know that North actually has tricks on this auction. For all South knows, North could have KQJTxxxx of spades and out, and 5♥ is cold.

 

Similarly, North has no idea who is making what. It seems normal to take out insurance in 5♠.

 

The only player who made a clear error was East. And he came out a winner.

[billw55]

The criticism of South's 2♦ bid is extremely harsh. He chose to bid his AKJxx suit (which makes a lot of sense for lead direction purposes should EW wind up in spades or notrump by West) as opposed to showing both minors or passing. How is this such a terrible idea?

 

The 5♥ bid by East was certainly from another planet.

 

Is South really supposed to hit 5♥? He doesn't know that North actually has tricks on this auction. For all South knows, North could have KQJTxxxx of spades and out, and 5♥ is cold.

 

Similarly, North has no idea who is making what. It seems normal to take out insurance in 5♠.

 

The only player who made a clear error was East. And he came out a winner.

Most of my partners will expect more honor values for a 2-level overcall, even nonvul. So I disagree with 2♦. But I do agree that 5♥ is worse.

[dake50]

South didn't double 5H on DAK and S-single?

Massive defense even given 2D was

a weak lead-director.

[aguahombre]

The criticism of South's 2♦ bid is extremely harsh.

And accurate. A lead director in case hearts aren't trump? At the risk of CHO thinking we have a 2D overcall, as well? North's 5♠ was certainly influenced by this overcall. Otherwise he would have still bid 4S/the (inv+?) response by West, and let the opponents screw up thereafter.

[han]

I like 2D.

[pooltuna]

I like 2D.

 

So you prefer to mastermind rather than actually tell your partner what is in your hand? :)

[aguahombre]

So you prefer to mastermind rather than actually tell your partner what is in your hand? :)

I don't think "mastermind" is quite right to describe the 2D overcall; but I do think NOT bidding 2D would leave us better placed most of the time.

 

And for this hand, it would leave us better placed to double 5H after:

 

(1H) p (**) 4S

(5H ?

 

**=whatever the limit raise with 4 trumps would have been.

 

Now, we would find ourselves with an undisclosed AK and a stiff in partner's suit, nice for a double.

[gnasher]

I like 3♦.

[daveharty]

How would you assign the blame?

31% to South for the 2D overcall. 23% to North for the 5S bid (mitigated somewhat by the fact that North surely thought there was more extreme distribution at the table with everyone else showing values). 42% to East for the suicidal 5H bid--justice is never served. 16% to Obama, because isn't everything his fault? And 8% to Nicholas Cage, who hasn't made a decent movie in, like, forever.

 

West is blame-free.

[gszes]

[hv=pc=n&s=s3h92dakj73ct7654&w=st2hqj65dt62caqj8&n=sakq87654h87d84c2&e=sj9hakt43dq95ck93&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1h2d2n4s5hpp5sppp]399|300|2NT heart fit, invitational or better [/hv]

 

This happened yesterday in an IMPs pairs game.

5♠ went down one, while 5♥ would be down at least 3 and could be down 5

How would you assign the blame?

 

Rainer Herrmann

the 2d overcall indeed has a "small" chance of hitting a homerun if

LHO plays the contract. There is also the chance it hits a homerun

in the bidding. The downsides of 2d are:

 

1. Leaves a ton more space for opps to bid

2. Only tells p half of my distribution story. Two chances of hitting

a homerun in the bidding are better than 1.

3. 2d usually shows a stronger (ie defensive trick taking ability) hand than a 2n bid

4. P has every reason to suspect we are a more on the balanced side

than we are and this can have a huge influence on their decision making.

 

I would choose 2n for a number of reasons not shown above.

 

1. I have a couple of quick defensive tricks which are more of a pleasant surprise.

2. This might be my only chance to describe my hand at a realtively low level so I go for it.

3. I can sit back relax and enjoy whatever p decides.

4. Promising 1 trick (2n bid) vs almost 3 tricks (2d overcall) can lead to much better

cooperative bidding at high levels.

 

Opposite an independent suit (in a hand of unknown power) I play an x at 5 level as showing

1 more defensive trick than I have promised in the bidding. On this occassion I can now

x 5h assuming 1h 2n 4h 4s 5h and p will be happpy to leave it in. I also use this only in

siturations that are not covered by forcing pass rules.

[phil_20686]

One problem no one has discussed yet is that north clearly thought this should be a FP situation. Not sure about you guys, but when partner has made a 2/1 overcall and I have leapt to game in a different suit that creates a FP at the 6 level. It just seems super obvious that once south has chosen to overcall 2d he has to commit to a 5 level FP. He should obviously dble 5h.

 

I honestly think south's pass of 5H is a clearer error than his 2d bid. Obviously 2d can be a disaster, not least when partner thinks you have more defensive strength and elects to dble something. However it does have a definite up side, and with a side 5 card suit south will not unlucky if north decides to sacrifice.

[mikeh]

One problem no one has discussed yet is that north clearly thought this should be a FP situation. Not sure about you guys, but when partner has made a 2/1 overcall and I have leapt to game in a different suit that creates a FP at the 6 level. It just seems super obvious that once south has chosen to overcall 2d he has to commit to a 5 level FP. He should obviously dble 5h.

 

I honestly think south's pass of 5H is a clearer error than his 2d bid. Obviously 2d can be a disaster, not least when partner thinks you have more defensive strength and elects to dble something. However it does have a definite up side, and with a side 5 card suit south will not unlucky if north decides to sacrifice.

I suspect that the reason no one has yet discussed fp is that no-one, until you posted, thought that 4♠ could possibly be seen as creating such a force. As someone earlier posted, N might well hold something like KQJ10xxxx and out. I mean, what would you bid with 8=1=2=2 shape, a good suit and zero defence? We'd all bid 4♠ without thinking anything of it.

 

Personally, I think N acted entirely appropriately at every turn. If the opps have the 10+ hearts they suggest on the auction, and S has a normal 2♦ call, this could be a double game swing and even if 5♠ fails, there has to be some chance that 5♥ makes. It sure sounds like everyone is bidding on shape....it turns out that E and S were bidding on a different planet instead.

 

Since 4♠ can't logically establish a fp, a double by S would be speculative....not to mention that sometimes the reason for the 4♠ call was a diamond fit in addition to long spades.

[neilkaz]

Hmm..one player overcalls 2♦ with AKJxx and NOTHING else and we have to ask whose blame is it :rolleyes: ?

[quiddity]

I don't see how South's overcall mattered. If anything it gave NS a chance to go right, since it allowed North to consider doubling 5♥ to show that he expected to make 4♠ and that he has some defense and no diamond fit. Not saying that double would be the right bid though, he does have a solid 8-card suit..

[gnasher]

I find it hard to blame anyone. Can't we just congratulate East instead?

[shyams]

I find it hard to blame anyone. Can't we just congratulate East instead?

Agree with gnasher.

 

An aisde: Would a dbl by North suggest "I want to sacrifice if you (South) have no defensive value"?

[xxhong]

I probably double 2NT to show a good hand with defense with north's hand, because your plan is always to bid 4S over 3H or 4H. A direct 4S should show a very offensive oriented hand. I think the most important thing is still to demonstrate power first, then later the shape. This is a good problem, which also indicates that a "bad" 5H over a wide 4S can sometimes win you a lot of IMPs. (of course, sometimes, it can cost you a lot of IMPs.)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s3h92dakj73ct7654&w=st2hqj65dt62caqj8&n=sakq87654h87d84c2&e=sj9hakt43dq95ck93&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1h2d2n4s5hpp5sppp]399|300|2NT heart fit, invitational or better [/hv]

 

This happened yesterday in an IMPs pairs game.

5♠ went down one, while 5♥ would be down at least 3 and could be down 5

How would you assign the blame?

 

Rainer Herrmann

[phil_20686]

I suspect that the reason no one has yet discussed fp is that no-one, until you posted, thought that 4♠ could possibly be seen as creating such a force. As someone earlier posted, N might well hold something like KQJ10xxxx and out. I mean, what would you bid with 8=1=2=2 shape, a good suit and zero defence? We'd all bid 4♠ without thinking anything of it.

 

Personally, I think N acted entirely appropriately at every turn. If the opps have the 10+ hearts they suggest on the auction, and S has a normal 2♦ call, this could be a double game swing and even if 5♠ fails, there has to be some chance that 5♥ makes. It sure sounds like everyone is bidding on shape....it turns out that E and S were bidding on a different planet instead.

 

Since 4♠ can't logically establish a fp, a double by S would be speculative....not to mention that sometimes the reason for the 4♠ call was a diamond fit in addition to long spades.

 

I think that a 2/1 overcall plus a 4S bid should have enough defence to create a FP at the 5 level. you are right that the 4S bidder does not need much defencive strength, but in reality he will typically have one trick because its rare to have a pure hand without even the ace in your suit. The 2/1 overcaller will virtually always have two tricks and three is more normal. I think playing that a 2/1 overcall + any life from partner creates a five level forcing pass is a winner. I'm pretty surprised that you do not think this is a FP situation over 4H.

 

Your example of a double game swing seems to make my point exactly. The difference between 4hx and 5h when 5s is cold is nothing. If its a double game swing hand, you really want to be playing a FP.

 

In bridge we play the %, because partner can occasionally have a KQJTxxxx and out and 5h is making is not a reason not to play a FP here. Besides, maybe that day partner has a real overcall with three defensive tricks and it didnt matter anyway. If opener had KQJ and out on the given hand you are still beating it by leading partners suit...and that is hardly uncommon. Obv opponents are on crack here.

[benlessard]

Its obvious that if you overcall 2D here you shouldnt play FP, in fact in the long run its going to be better for you if you dont know what FP is. East obviously knew the north south customers.

 

I like to play a style with 2/1 overcall as light as a weak 2 (but with 1nt as a strong unbalanced overcall)

[hotShot]

As South I would have dbled 5♥.

South has only 1 ♠, so South can guess that North can make ♠ tricks, South can lead ♠ and has shown that he likes a ♦ return.