1 H or 1 Spade ?

[MrAce]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj74ha96532d65c]133|100[/hv]

 

Playing 2/1 system, what would be your choice of opening and why please ?

 

I posted this because the comments i saw from 2 British star players made me curious if majority of players think alike or not. I will not say their comments untill later.

 

Thanks all for replies.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1♥ ...

I'm willing to show my 5-6 shape with this hand.

[aguahombre]

JXXXX AKJXXX KX -- would look like a 1H opener, where I am not terribly worried about missing the 3-5 spade fit. Partner is not encumbered by the Flannery inference and will show four spades.

 

The given hand is fine for 1S; paying off if we can't find the 2-6 hearts. I won't reverse with it.

[wyman]

I would treat this as 5-5 and open 1S. Lying about my relative length, especially with these heart spots, seems better than either reversing or burying the spades.

[BunnyGo]

I would open 1S.

 

On another note, I'm amused that the title alone described the hand exactly.

[MrAce]

1♠--2♠ Are we all happy if pd has 3♠ only. Are we happy especially if we start trick one by ruffing a♣ ? Dont we still need some sort of ♥ support in a 5-3 fit ? (not neccesarilly always of course) And how shall we continue ? PAss? 3♥ ? so pd can pass with xxx ♥ ?

 

1♥--2♥ I am extremely happy, and will bid my game at imps or mp .Would you be as uncomfortable as 1♠-2♠ auction even if you are not happy yet ?

 

1♥--1♠ I am very happy, especially if pd was going to raise me to 2 level had i opened this 1♠

 

1♥--2m

2♠ I dont play this as reverse, but i can understand the concerns of opening 1♥ if you do.

 

1♥--1NT

2♥ is my bid, not as good as opening 1♠ i admit, but i dont think much worse either since...

 

1♠--1NT

2♥--pass Are we happy ?

 

1♠--1NT

2♥--2♠

3♥ Are we happy with where we are at ?

 

Those are the things that goes thru my mind and i need your opinions. I maybe overlooking or ignoring some other facts that supports 1♠ opening other than those 5-3 ♠ fit with xx or Kx ♥ and opponents are not able to tap us and/or trumps + hearts are friendly. I am aware that there are a lot of hands that we can construct to support both sides, so i wont start it.

 

When it comes to auctions with opponents involved, i guess it cuts both ways. I would personally feel more secure with having started my longest suit.

[MrAce]

 

On another note, I'm amused that the title alone described the hand exactly.

 

LoL true, i didnt know when i posted it was that obvious :)

[Yu18772]

I open 1♠. I dont like opening 1♥ for the following reasons:

1. If I open 1♥ I will be very happy with 2♥ response, but I am not very likely to hear it.

On the other hand 1♥/1♠-1NT is a likely auction.

 

1♠-1NT

2♥-Pass

I am not overfilled with joy, but 1♥-1NT-2♥ to me is an inconceivable auction on that hand.

 

1♠-1NT

2♥-2♠

3♥-Pass/3M/4M - yes I am happy.

 

I dont consider 1♥-1♠ auction because if partner has 4 spades I am absolutely fine with opening 1♠.

 

2. I am not just unhappy, I am extremely miserable if opponents interfere and I have no way of mentioning my ♠. Consider:

1♥-2NT-P or X-3♣ ? (or any equivalent where partner passed and its back to you at the 3m or higher level).

If I open spades bidding 3♥ is not a problem.

 

3. I am very happy to bid

1♠-P-2m-P

2♥-P-2NT-P

3♥-P-3NT-P

4♥

I do play 1h-2m-2s as showing extra, but 6:5 definitely qualifies as extra, so on this auction it would get us to the same spot, only partner would have to guess if I have a K more or not

If I open 1♠ and rebid 2♥, this would not be an issue.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[Fluffy]

1♠ obviously, the one I would regret the most is

 

1♥-(3♣)-3♦-(4/5♣)

[JLOGIC]

1♠--2♠ Are we all happy if pd has 3♠ only. Are we happy especially if we start trick one by ruffing a♣ ? Dont we still need some sort of ♥ support in a 5-3 fit ? (not neccesarilly always of course) And how shall we continue ? PAss? 3♥ ? so pd can pass with xxx ♥ ?

 

1♥--2♥ I am extremely happy, and will bid my game at imps or mp .Would you be as uncomfortable as 1♠-2♠ auction even if you are not happy yet ?

 

1♥--1♠ I am very happy, especially if pd was going to raise me to 2 level had i opened this 1♠

 

1♥--2m

2♠ I dont play this as reverse, but i can understand the concerns of opening 1♥ if you do.

 

1♥--1NT

2♥ is my bid, not as good as opening 1♠ i admit, but i dont think much worse either since...

 

1♠--1NT

2♥--pass Are we happy ?

 

1♠--1NT

2♥--2♠

3♥ Are we happy with where we are at ?

 

Those are the things that goes thru my mind and i need your opinions. I maybe overlooking or ignoring some other facts that supports 1♠ opening other than those 5-3 ♠ fit with xx or Kx ♥ and opponents are not able to tap us and/or trumps + hearts are friendly. I am aware that there are a lot of hands that we can construct to support both sides, so i wont start it.

 

When it comes to auctions with opponents involved, i guess it cuts both ways. I would personally feel more secure with having started my longest suit.

 

This analysis is unfair to a 1S opener since the reason people open 1S is for fear of losing spades if the auction becomes competitive.

[Vampyr]

Partner is not encumbered by the Flannery inference and will show four spades.

 

 

True, the British players will not be encumbered by the "Flannery inference". LOL

[Lurpoa]

Correction

 

1♥

 

any 6-5 with opening values is worth a reverse, which we play only one-round forcing.

[guido]

True, the British players will not be encumbered by the "Flannery inference". LOL

 

Being seriously old, I believe in preparedness. I open 1♠ so that I can rebid ♥ at almost any any level. If the opponents were barred from the bidding, I'd open 1♥ if playing a forcing ♣ or ♦ system.

 

I must admit that if I were playing Flannery (a fine convention which I encourage all my opponents to use), I would be tempted to use it on this hand. Except for the midnight Swiss, though, I'd probably be strong enough to resist the temptation.

[aguahombre]

I must admit that if I were playing Flannery (a fine convention which I encourage all my opponents to use), I would be tempted to use it on this hand. Except for the midnight Swiss, though, I'd probably be strong enough to resist the temptation.

Misunderstanding, here. The "Flannery inference" is the 1S response to 1H, not the choice of opening bid itself. Some who use Flannery only respond 1S/1H with 5 of them. They either forget that the 1H opener might be 4-6 in the majors, open Flannery with 4-6 in the majors, or haven't thought about it at all.

[ggwhiz]

1♠ for me. Every reason to expect competition and partner will play me for much more strength if I open 1♥ until (or even after) I bid ♠ TWICE.

 

That's as poor use of bidding room on a potential mis-fit as well.

[gwnn]

Happy 1♥ bidder here (intending to rebid and rerebid 2♠ and 3♠ if allowed). No deep philosophical arguments (or cliches) this time. The upsides and downsides of each bid are obvious, as are those of playing a potentially light reverse style. They have also been more or less stated in prior posts.

[whereagles]

I know this hand lol. I held LHOs cards.

 

I believe 1S is superior. As a rule, with a 6x-5y y>x you should only open 1x if you're strong enough to rebid suit y twice. Usually this means something close to a 4 or less loser hand.

[MarkDean]

Call me old-fashioned, but I would open my six card suit.

[whereagles]

old-fashioned :)

[Phil]

Call me old-fashioned, but I would open my six card suit.

 

Call me really old-fashioned but i would rather open my higher ranking suit.

[the hog]

I would open 1S. This hand is obviously not strong enough to reverse and I want to ensure that I show both suits.

[MrAce]

I open 1♠. I dont like opening 1♥ for the following reasons:

1. If I open 1♥ I will be very happy with 2♥ response, but I am not very likely to hear it.

On the other hand 1♥/1♠-1NT is a likely auction.

 

If thats the auction you expect, assuming your pd's 1NT is 5- 11/12 hcp, your pd's hand will be full of minors with the opps being silent on their 18-24 hcp range. I would not even bother to bid ♠ and find a "maybe" 5-3♠ fit. If this is the auction that biased your choice mainly, then with;

 

1♠--1NT

2♥--2♠ auction you are nowhere close to know what pd has. He may have 3 card ♠, he may as well have stiff ♠. He may have 1-2 2-1 2-2 2-3 3-2 in majors. And if he has one of those, bidding 3♥ will not make things much better if not worse. But i expect some competition rather than your prediction, it is another story.

 

This analysis is unfair to a 1S opener since the reason people open 1S is for fear of losing spades if the auction becomes competitive.

 

 

Its not unfair since i confessed at the end of my post that i maybe overlooking or ignoring the logic that supports 1♠ opening. I just wrote things that went thru my mind when i see 2 star players saying that opening 1♥ is wrong. I really dont wanna be unfair, but rather trying to make up my mind by saying my instincts and listen to answers.

 

And as i already said, these are

 

-I am not worried much to lose 5-4♠ fit most of the time with or without competition when open 1♥.

 

-Yes you are correct that i am worried about losing 5-3 ♠ fit, but if we assume some of the 5-3 ♠ fits without ♥ support turn out to be bad for us, i am not quite sure if that weak point of opening 1♥ overwhelms other plusses.

 

-When i open 1♠, there are auctions under competition that i will never know how many ♠ pd raised with. Even without competition unless we play bergen or etc.. This is one of those hands it is actually important for us imo. Had i opened 1♥ and pd has a hand that would make a 4card limit raise in ♠ he can still show it if he has no ♥ fit, even under competition.

 

- Lets assume that when we have fit in both suits, most of the time it will be correct to play in ♥. It is not easy to turn back to ♥ suit when ♠ is raised, and if ♥ was raised we would not need to shift to ♠ anyway in most cases.

 

- Lets assume pd has neither 3 card ♠ nor 3 card ♥, opening 1♠ under competition will end up pd correcting it to ♠. However opening 1♥ is not any better, because pd will correct it to correct suit but 1 level higher than other one.

 

I am genuinely trying to decide which one is better, not trying to disagree with anyone else. Hard to make a decision without expressing my thoughts, or would you call this choice of 1h or 1sp a matter of style ?

[pooltuna]

If this had an easy solution we would have found it already. Perhaps a simul on different internal suit structures could suggest a %age call but either way it will probably be close.

[aguahombre]

If this had an easy solution we would have found it already. Perhaps a simul on different internal suit structures could suggest a %age call but either way it will probably be close.

Other considerations would screw up a sim, IMO ---such as bidding system. Hands would come up where big clubbers can reverse, but others could not, for instance. The response strength and style of the companion hand would also be a factor.

 

Probably best for everyone to just figure out for themselves what seems better in their partnership style.

[mikeh]

This is on the borderline for me, but I have enough controls to make me open 1♥, plannng on bidding spades twice if appropriate.

 

We can get into some repetitive arguments here, but one point that always concerns me whenever I see someone distort their shape is how they avoid partner giving them preference back to the short suit.

 

When partner has gf strength, it is difficult to see how 1♥ will fare worse than 1♠, and easy to see how 1♠ will get us to the wrong suit, since partner will be misled by our auction.

 

When partner responds 1N, this is when the spade openers are at gravest risk of playing the short suit, albeit at a lower level than me.

 

When the opps interfere over 1♥, and partner doesn't fit our opening major, it is more likely that he has 4♠ when we open 1♥ than that he has 4♥ when we open 1♠, and so he is more likely to be able to negative double after we open 1♥ than 1♠. Moreover, if he has 3 card support and is raising in competition, we definitely want to play our 6-3 rather than our 5-3......a 4-1 break in spades is horrifying....and our 6-2 hearts will, for the same reason, often outplay our 5-3 spades.

 

 

There are contrary arguments, and I am not ignoring them. I do think this is close. I also think that, for me, it is clear :P