Sanity Check

[ArtK78]

IMPs (12 board match, VPs). Playing a light opening system in which you open all 10 counts (1NT being 10-12) in 1st and 2nd seats nonvul, you pick up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak42hq542d3c9742&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=pp1d2cdp2sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Do you take another call?

[S2000magic]

Nine HCP, 2 or 3 for the singleton, 7 losers: all suggest that you're on the brink of game.

 

I'd bid 3♠. (Not 4♠: if you have to ruff more than 2 diamond losers you'll be using the ♠ A K; I'd be more inclined to bid 4♠ holding:

 

♠ 9 7 4 2

♥ Q 5 4 2

♦ 3

♣ A K 4 2)

[Hanoi5]

Being imp's I could try 3♠, but I really don't like my singleton. If spades and hearts were reversed I'd feel better about it.

[billw55]

(Not 4♠: if you have to ruff more than 2 diamond losers you'll be using the ♠ A K;

If you want to ruff a third diamond you're going to need to ruff high.

 

On this hand, probably much depends on partner's diamond holding. Axxx or xxxx will be good; KQxx fair; KJxx shaky; QJxx bad. Are there methods to identify this - some sort of short suit game try? If partner knows I have the singleton diamond he can evaluate his hand much more accurately than on a generic game try like 3♠.

 

Also a heart honor in partner's hand will go a long way.

[whereagles]

We have 7-7,5 losers so this is close between 3 and 4S. Definitely 3 at least.

[JLOGIC]

Id give it an insta pass

[pooltuna]

If you open light in 1st and 2nd seat then you are relieved from doing so in 3rd and 4th seat. So I would expect partner to make a 1♦ call in 3rd seat with a hand he has an expectation of a plus score i.e. a pretty good hand. Consequently with your hand I think a 3♠ call is mandatory.

[mikeh]

Partner heard us make a 2-level negative double and expressed the view that he had zero interest in game unless we held substantial extras. So I pass

[pooltuna]

Partner heard us make a 2-level negative double and expressed the view that he had zero interest in game unless we held substantial extras. So I pass

 

So you are ready to pass over 2♣ with ♠Axxx♥Qxxx♦x♣xxxx ?

[aguahombre]

Partner heard us make a 2-level negative double and expressed the view that he had zero interest in game unless we held substantial extras. So I pass

Every word is true, of course, in your first sentence. I wonder however, given OP's given style, what exactly "substantial extras" would be. Apparently you don't think that hand is substantial for the original pass.

[JLOGIC]

So you are ready to pass over 2♣ with ♠Axxx♥Qxxx♦x♣xxxx ?

 

Of course? If partner passes out 2C, he has some club length. I am going to lead my stiff diamond against 2C. I'm pretty thrilled with it. With Axxx Qxxx xxx xx I would not pas however. I am not convinced that that is a better hand thatn Axxx Qxxx x xxxx when they bid 2C on my right though. Having 4 small of RHOs suit is a real negative, they are almost certainly losers, partner probably has an honor there, and its probably wasted.

 

I mean give partner QJxx xx KQJxx Ax which is a damn good hand opposite the OP hand without any club wastage, and game has zero play. And don't say that the diamond honors are wasted, that is our source of tricks to cover all of our club and heart losers.

 

Ok, maybe unfair I gave partner no diamond ace. Lets give partner Qxxx Kx AQJxx Qx. Again, this is a fine hand, 14 points, 5-4-2-2 with the HK making our queen valuable. How do you like your chances in game on this hand? Well, we only have 3 top losers (2 clubs and a heart). But where are our winners? We have 1 heart winner, and 1 diamond winner. We are not going to take 8 trump tricks. Even if we score 2 diamond tricks, we are not going to take 7 trump tricks. We have to hope to score 6 trumps, and 3 diamonds... That requires 3-2 trumps, scoring 2 ruffs in some hand, picking up the DK, probably 4-3 diamonds, not getting trump promo'd ever (with LHO just pitching on the clubs, or ruffing in if he has a doubleton). For a white game.

 

I don't know what kind of hand you guys are expecting from partner. Game might be ok opposite some miracle hand but bidding again just seems truly awful to me.

[JLOGIC]

Also, I have no idea how people count tricks in the losing trick count, but if this is a GAME bid, that is a terrible system. Do peoples losing trick count estimates account for the fact that our hand is not AKxx Qxxx xxxx x? If not, maybe use some common sense and ditch the system. 4 small diamonds and a stiff club is insanely different from our actual hand.

[mikeh]

So you are ready to pass over 2♣ with ♠Axxx♥Qxxx♦x♣xxxx ?

Yes

 

Just what kinds of hands do you think he could have where passing this rates to do badly?

 

Does my pass of 2♣ bar him?

 

Our club length strongly suggests pass, as does our diamond shortage. If he can't reopen, then we almost certainly need to be on defence...we may well have more clubs than they do and a small preponderance of the high cards, and great defence.

 

I know I am overly conservative, but a lot of players err on the opposite side...they think pass is a 4 letter word....well, it is, but not that kind.

 

As for my OP, I forgot we were a passed hand. I still pass, but my point shouldn't have been about our having substantial extras, as it would be were we an unpassed hand. My point is that partner has made the weakest bid he could....why do we think that our partially misfitting 9 count makes game good opposite an intelligent partner?

 

I suppose another way of looking at it is to think about the hand-types he'd have needed to bid 3♠.

 

We know he doesn't have a balanced 15-17 (no 1N). We know he doesn't have a 4=5 pointed hand with a decent 14 count (no 3♠). Just what are we playing him for? In pursuit of a nv game, where -50 or -100 rates to cost about as much as we gain should it make....pass seems clear.

[mycroft]

So, you play a very light opening system. Is there a lower-than-usual upper limit?

 

For instance, if I'm playing Precision, not only do I not know partner's diamond length (but it's probably longish, given the auction and my minors holding), but we're on 24 max - and if they suss out the crossruff at trick 1, it's 24 max with 3 or 4 trump to play with.

 

If openers could be 10-21, then it's a different question.

[ArtK78]

So, you play a very light opening system. Is there a lower-than-usual upper limit?

 

For instance, if I'm playing Precision, not only do I not know partner's diamond length (but it's probably longish, given the auction and my minors holding), but we're on 24 max - and if they suss out the crossruff at trick 1, it's 24 max with 3 or 4 trump to play with.

 

If openers could be 10-21, then it's a different question.

Opening one bids in first and second seats nonvul are minimum 10 HCP, maximum up to a standard 2♣ opener.

 

Typically, that means 10-21 HCP.

 

Otherwise, it is a standard system. It is not a strong club system.

 

Third seat opener is opening and rebidding knowing that he faces a hand with a maximum of 9 HCP. He also knows that partner is unlikely to have a 5 card major, as we frequently open weak 2 bids with 5 card suits in 1st and 2nd seats nonvul on 3-9 HCP.

 

If your question was what the criteria were for 3rd seat, it is sanity, knowing that partner has less than 10 HCP. His maximum for a one bid is anything that is not a 2♣ opening.

 

Mikeh correctly pointed out that by opening 1♦ partner denied having a strong (15-17) 1NT opening bid.

[whereagles]

Also, I have no idea how people count tricks in the losing trick count (...)

 

There are a couple of LTC schemes. The one I know is Klinger's. You count 1 loser for each lack of A,K,Q in a long suit (3+) and 1 for lack of AK in a doubleton. This hand has

 

1 spade (lack of Q)

2 heart (lack of AK)

1 diamond (lack of A)

3 clubs (lack of AKQ)

---

7 losers

 

You can adjust for +1/2 loser due to the unsupported queen. Now, a 7-loser hand is a game bid opposite a sound opening and an 8-loser is an invite. Since this is a 3rd seat opener, an invite seems reasonable.

 

The method does not distinguish x/xxxx from xxxx/x in the minors, so yeah I guess you could call it inferior :P

[phil_20686]

I mean I could easily pass, but I'm not expecting partner to bid more than 2S with: QJxx KJx AKxxx x am I> so that is an argument for bidding game. On the other hand, I could easily see partner having Jxxx Kxx KQx QJx.

 

Whether you should invite therefore depends crucially on how sound your dbles are - if you would have at minimum an 8 count then partner can bid 3M more aggresively. If you would dble on 6 with both majors you are perhaps somewhat close to inviting. However, I dont like my stiff diamond very much.

 

Ill pass, but I dont feel strongly about it. Would expect it to work out badly some of the time.

[benlessard]

The fact that partner can have a 13-14 bal make bidding 3S dangerous IMO. Mini Nt do not give some of the advantages of a 12-14 Nt.

 

Vs a passed hand what is the point of opening 10-12 instead of 10-14 or even 10-15 if you open almost all ten count ? Its a really weak method IMO

 

Edit ive seen taht its only in 1st and 2nd seat so whats your 3rd seat Nt ?

[gnasher]

I mean I could easily pass, but I'm not expecting partner to bid more than 2S with: QJxx KJx AKxxx x am I> so that is an argument for bidding game. On the other hand, I could easily see partner having Jxxx Kxx KQx QJx.

 

I think opener should bid 3♠ with QJxx KJx AKxxx x. Even the Losing Trick Count would get that one right.

 

Jxxx Kxx KQx QJx looks like a 1♣ opening to me.

[ArtK78]

ive seen taht its only in 1st and 2nd seat so whats your 3rd seat Nt ?

Third and fourth seat 1NT is 15-17 (I have suggested to pard that it should be 16-18, but he prefers 15-17 even opposite a hand that has denied as much as a 10 count).

[ArtK78]

I mean I could easily pass, but I'm not expecting partner to bid more than 2S with: QJxx KJx AKxxx x am I> so that is an argument for bidding game. On the other hand, I could easily see partner having Jxxx Kxx KQx QJx.

 

If one of us were to open that "hand," it would be a 1♣ opening in third seat (a comforable 10-12 1NT in first or second seat).

 

Given that partner has denied as much as a 10 count, I don't see why you would want to open that hand in 3rd seat.

[Free]

I thought LTC stands for Loser Trick Count since it's only used by losers. :P

 

The long ♣s can be benificial or a nightmare. My initial thought was to bid 3♠, but Justin got me thinking... Thanks dude, now I no longer know what to do. :P

[S2000magic]

Jxxx Kxx KQx QJx looks like a 1♣ opening to me.

Whereas to me it looks like a 1NT opener. ;)

[MrAce]

I think opener should bid 3♠ with QJxx KJx AKxxx x. Even the Losing Trick Count would get that one right.Jxxx Kxx KQx QJx looks like a 1♣ opening to me.

 

:D

[han]

I think opener should bid 3♠ with QJxx KJx AKxxx x.

 

Yes! Of course, gnasher and I would play that double promises 4 spades, which makes this an easier 3S bid.

 

they think pass is a 4 letter word....

 

:)