16 Questions

[fred]

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Question 1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North?

Question 2: How high are North-South forced?

 

[hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2dd?]133|100[/hv]

Note that East has DBLed.

 

Question 3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South?

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

Question 5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South?

Question 6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South?

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

Question 8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South?

Question 9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South?

Question 10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South?

Question 11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"?

 

[hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2dd2h3d?]133|100[/hv]

Question 12: Would Pass be forcing?

Question 13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North?

Question 14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North?

Question 15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North?

 

Question 16: What does this prove?

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Hanoi5]

1: Any 12+ HCP's: unbalanced, that have at least a 4-card Major if balanced, or that lack a ♦ stopper if balanced with no Major.

2: I'd say they're forced to game but I bet hands could be construed where theey stop at 4♣ or a 4-3 fit in a Major.

3: Minimum hands: 10 to some 12's.

4: You got me there. Hands with something (Hxx or better) in Diamonds? Hands with NOTHING (singleton or void) in Diamonds? Balanced hands with 13+? I suppose the later makes more sense.

5: 13+ and 4+ hearts.

6: 13+ and 4+ spades, not 4 hearts (unles 5-4).

7:

...

16: That there are way too many things that have to be agreed upon in order to communicate well with partner?

[gnasher]

My answers would vary significantly with the answer to question 2, which I play differently in different partnerships.

 

Question 1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North?

Invitational+ with one or two 4-card majors; a game-force that's too good to jump to game; a balanced game-force without a diamond stop.

 

Question 2: How high are North-South forced?

To 2H, if we have a 4-4 fit there.

 

Question 3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South?

A minimum with bad shape and/or poor majors

 

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

A good balanced hand, FG. Might have a major; but if so will tend to have a diamond stop.

 

Question 5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South?

A normal minimum with four hearts, and possibly four spades. NF

 

Question 6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South?

A normal minimum with four spades but not four hearts. NF

 

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

An offensive minimum without a major, but with a diamond stop (eg 3325). NF. Probably an infrequent action.

 

Question 8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South?

A non-minimum with clubs but no major, FG

 

Question 9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South?

A non-minimum with both majors, FG

 

Question 10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South?

A non-minimum with the bid major, FG

 

Question 11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"?

N/A

(But if the cue was forcing to agreement, I think it still should be. Suppose that the doubler had a way to cancel the forcing message, but advancer actually had a game-force where he wanted to explore bith fits and stops. Now he'd have to jump or bid 3♦, so we'd have allowed opener's double to rob us of a level of bidding. Furthermore, opener's double suggests that he has high cards in diamonds, which suggests that our high cards will be outside diamonds, so game has become more likely.)

 

Question 12: Would Pass be forcing?

No.

 

Question 13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North?

An invitational hand without four hearts, so with four spades.

 

Question 14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North?

A balanced game-force without a major and without a sufficient diamond stop for 3NT.

 

Question 15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North?

A game-force with four spades and no diamond stop (3NT would suggest a game-force with four spades and a diamond stop).

 

Question 16: What does this prove?

That life's a lot easier if you play that the cue-bid doesn't promise another bid. (I started off typing my responses for a partnership where the cue-bid is forcing to agreement, and got into a horrible mess.)

[fred]

Well done, Gnasher. I found your answers to be thoughtful and (for the most part) playable. That doesn't mean that I would necessarily choose to play that way (or that I think I know what the "right" answers to most of these questions are).

 

One additional question just for you:

 

Question 17: Unless I am missing something (entirely possible) if the takeout DBLer has a "double and then bid suit" type hand, he doesn't have any satisfactory action to take at his second turn. If I am correct then maybe you should rethink your answers to questions 9 and 10?

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[gnasher]

Question 17: Unless I am missing something (entirely possible) if the takeout DBLer has a "double and then bid suit" type hand, he doesn't have any satisfactory action to take at his second turn. If I am correct then maybe you should rethink your answers to questions 9 and 10?

He could either jump to game in his suit (perhaps this should be forcing?), or jump to three of his major and then have another go. I don't think that this problem will occur very often - there aren't enough high cards to go around.

[aguahombre]

Our choice on #1 affects everything else (including the question 17 not asked everyone). The 2♦ cue can be as few as 6-7 points with 4-4 in the Majors...showing a hand which would have raised an opening 4-card major to two wanted to play the eight card fit (but also including many g.f. advances).

 

If we had Gnasher's more popular answer to #1 his remaining answers would look good, too. I won't clutter up this thread with all our other answers based on the lower possibility of the cuebid, and I doubt there will be a flood of PM's requesting the information, either.

 

Love people's doubles of cuebids which say, "didn't you see my previous bid?" and love to use those doubles against them. Here, the redouble could be used instead of the awkward recue as a relay to start showing a big one-suiter and save a lot of space and the pass could be a big NT hand or vice versa.

[Phil]

Fred gets a free pass against the "multiple questions per thread" rule :)

 

[(1♦) - x - (p) - 2♦]

 

Question 1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North?

 

Either a hand with invitational values or better and 4-4+ in the majors or any GF.

 

Question 2: How high are North-South forced?

 

To suit agreement.

 

----------------

 

[(1♦) - x - (p) - 2♦;

Dbl

 

Question 3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South?

 

Probably a rotten takeout double with four spades (where I can bid 2♠ over followups) or a minimum TOx with 3-3 in the majors.

 

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

 

A hand where I want to set a force and/or suggest defense vs 3♦. I don't think it says much about my majors, although my ODR isn't good

 

Question 5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South?

 

Any hand with four hearts.

 

Question 6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South?

See #3; at least a useful minimum.

 

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

I don't know. DNE probably.

 

Question 8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South?

 

3325 and extras I think. I think this sets a force since suit agreement is now problematic at the 3 level.

 

Question 9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South?

I think this shows 4-4 in the majors and GF - perhaps it also has a hand that wants to right-side the major as well.

 

Question 10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South?

Some sort of one-suited hand too strong for an overcall where I want to clarify my hand.

 

Question 11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"?

 

I think pass could imply that, sure.

 

[(1♦) - x - (p) - 2♦;

(Dbl) - 2♥ - (3♦) -

 

Question 12: Would Pass be forcing?

Yes. As stated in #1, responder has a GF or inv + with 4M-4M

 

Question 13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North?

A hand where I want to give partner the chance of doubling 3♥ or a hand where I want to make a slam try. Pulling the double and cuebidding seems like the only way to iniate a slam sequence.

 

Question 14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North?

A hand that wants to defend. Its definitely penalty oriented, especially in light of the force we are in.

Question 15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North?

 

A GF hand with 5♠.

 

Question 16: What does this prove?

 

That I have too much time on my hands on a Thursday.

[whereagles]

[hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2d]133|100[/hv]

Question 1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North?

Question 2: How high are North-South forced?

 

1. That depends on agreements. What I learned (french standard) was

- 8+ and both 4-card majors, or

- 11+ with 1 or 2 4-card majors

I'll follow this trend in the rest of replies.

 

2. Responder promises a rebid, opener should bid his first 4-card major.

 

[hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2dd?]133|100[/hv]

Note that East has DBLed.

 

Question 3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South?

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

Question 5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South?

Question 6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South?

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

Question 8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South?

Question 9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South?

Question 10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South?

Question 11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"?

 

3. huh.. pass might show no 4-card major and a min?

4. not many will have this agreed, so it should be whatever you meta-rules for redoubles say. If XX mostly take out, this might be both majors. If XX mostly penalty... I guess this would be a proposal to play with some 18+ hand.

5. 4-card heart.

6. 4-card spade, no 4-card heart.

7. no 4-card major, mild extras i.e. good 13-14. Maybe 15-17 & half stop if you hate overcalling 1NT without stop :)

8. strong hand, natural, 18-20 hcp.

9. no major, balanced 17-20 or so, stopper asking.

10. GOSH, 18+ hcp.

11. maybe "pass - nothing more to say"?

 

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Question 12: Would Pass be forcing?

Question 13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North?

Question 14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North?

Question 15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North?

 

Question 16: What does this prove?

 

12. yes.

13. probably 4 spades and offensive hand, hoping doubler can bid spades or dbl. With 4 hearts and offensive hand, advancer would have bid 3H directly.

14. huh.. defensive hand maybe? May or may not have spades or hearts.

15. dunno really.. perhaps based on a heart fit? Or maybe just too scared pass would be misunderstood by pard?? LOL

 

16. that you're either writing a book or had a recent mixup in this sequence LOL.

[Fluffy]

Question 1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North?

-GF Any or 4-4 Majors INV

 

Question 2: How high are North-South forced?

-3M

 

Question 3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South?

-minimum balanced

 

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

-strong balanced

 

Question 5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South?

-hands with 4 hearts not balanced

 

Question 6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South?

-hands with 4 spades nto 4 hearts not balanced

 

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

-19+ with stopper

 

Question 8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South?

-3316 or strong one suiter

 

Question 9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South?

-extras with both majors

 

Question 10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South?

6+(5) cards, about 19+ HCP (double + show suit)

 

Question 11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"?

-yeah pass with balanced minimums and stop at the 2 level is possible, didn´t elaborate if reouble or 2M is the weak one, I guess redouble

 

Question 12: Would Pass be forcing?

-Yes, cuebid made our side forcing pass althou it looks rare on this position.

 

Question 13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North?

-strong hand normally with support, a hand that was gonna bid 2♠ or 3♦ over pass (perhaps 3♣ also)

 

Question 14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North?

-strong balanced hand without 4 hearts

 

Question 15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North?

-Strong hand without 4 hearts

 

Question 16: What does this prove?

-I supose you wanna probe that 3♠ doesn't show 5 cards neccesarily.

[S2000magic]

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

-strong balanced

 

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

-19+ with stopper

Does Rdbl show a weaker hand than 2NT? Or 19+ w/o a stopper?

[aguahombre]

Does Rdbl show a weaker hand than 2NT? Or 19+ w/o a stopper?

Leading to the question of whether both calls are needed in a natural sense. Maybe 2NT could be freed up to describe some awkward double with extra strength.

 

The answers to question 3 of the OP confuse me. Those who agree 2M merely shows 4 of that major after the cuebid is doubled and also say that Pass would be a balanced minimum for the original double must really make some atypical doubles of 1♦...no major, and a balanced minimum sounds like the description of an original pass to me.

[Zelandakh]

Question 1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North?

Invitational with both majors or a GF based on strength rather than pure shape

 

Question 2: How high are North-South forced?

Forcing to suit agreement

 

Note that East has DBLed.

 

--

Question 3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South?

A minimum double without a 4 card major

 

Question 4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South?

A big hand without direction, or a very big hand

 

Question 5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South?

With 4 hearts

 

Question 6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South?

With 4 spades

 

Question 7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South?

19-21 balanced with diamond stop

 

Question 8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South?

A hand too strong to overcall 2C

 

Question 9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South?

Both majors

 

Question 10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South?

3M for a hand too strong to overcall 1M

 

Question 11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"?

Pass seems to fit the bill

 

--

Question 12: Would Pass be forcing?

Yes

 

Question 13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North?

A GF hand without 5 spades that does not want to suggest defending

 

Question 14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North?

Penalty suggestion

 

Question 15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North?

GF with 5+ spades

 

Question 16: What does this prove?

My first thought was that this is a great spot for transfers. My second thought is that the follow-ups seem to depend very heavily on Q1. If the initial cue can contain invitational hands with only 1 major then I can see things getting messy. Using Doubler's XX in Q4 and Advancer's Pass in Q13 effectively as cheap cue bids looks to be a reasonable general agreement.

[lowerline]

Q1: 9+ no 5crd suit or GF

Q2: 2M

Q3: min takeout with equal length in the majors

Q4: balanced but not absolutely minimum (forcing pass is on)

Q5&6: min takeout with 4crd suit (other major is shorter)

Q7: too strong to overcall 1nt (but why not rdbl with this hand?)

Q8: too strong to overcall 2♣

Q9: takeout with extra's; no 5crd suit

Q10: too strong to overcall (♥/♠)

Q11: N/A (cfr Q2/3/5/6)

 

Q12: no

Q13: min no 4crd ♥

Q14: extra's no 4crd ♥

Q15: cue for hearts

Q16: this doesn't come up often

[Fluffy]

Does Rdbl show a weaker hand than 2NT? Or 19+ w/o a stopper?

Its more like 2NT doesn't show much interes in the majors, reoduoble could be 4224, 2NT is more like 3343. Redouble is 16(15)+ while 2NT is an ace stronger also.

[JLOGIC]

Fred, it's hilarious because I was going to post this hand but it was so complicated (so many issues) that I did not know which, if any, to post. This situation came up at the sectional when I was playing with Sheri. Fred, I would also like to discuss this with you and Sheri tomorrow at the sectional if you have time, and I was wondering if Hampson had any thoughts on it. See you tomorrow.

[JLOGIC]

Fred gets a free pass against the "multiple questions per thread" rule :)

 

 

You have an uncanny knack for confusing simple things. Multiple HANDS per thread is the "rule" that you are talking about. Multiple questions about the same auction and the developing auction is obviously fine.

[fred]

OK here's story....

 

[hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2dd2h3d3s]133|100[/hv]

 

- South was an excellent and thoughtful American player, but not a super-expert.

- North was a truly great American player (seriously, one of the very best).

- North and South had played a reasonable number of boards together in the past, but were not a regular partnership.

- I doubt that North-South has discussed any of the 16 questions I presented other than perhaps Question 2 for which they almost surely would have briefly agreed "forcing to suit agreement" (since I believe this is "default expert standard" in the USA).

- Even if North-South had not discussed Question 2, they would have both assumed "forcing to suit agreement".

- South had a nice-looking 3415 with strong clubs.

- North was 6232 and had sufficient values to make a mildish slam try after partner's takeout double.

- South was not sure what to expect when North bid 3S.

- As a result, the final contract was 4S instead of a very good though not laydown 6S.

 

When I was asked about this hand, my initial reaction was that I did not like either South's 2H call (preferring Pass or 3C) or North's 3S call (preferring 4S).

 

My reasons for not likely 2H were based mostly on instinct - I guess it goes against the grain for me to bid a 4-card suit before a strong 5-card suit when your hand is strong enough to force to game. Clubs, even though it is a minor, is a real suit too and sometimes 5C is actually the right contract.

 

But it is not as if I have really spent much time previously thinking about the answers to Questions 3 through 11. I actually suspect that few pairs, even at the highest levels, have substantial agreements in this area and there is definitely no "default expert standard" here. Yet the auction through East's DBL is fairly common. IMO it would be worthwhile for any serious partnership of advanced (or better) players to discuss Questions 3 through 11.

 

North was able to offer a fairly compelling case as to why 3S *should* be a slam try with long spades, but for me this was a matter of being (probably) right in theory but still being wrong in practice.

 

My reason for not liking 3S is (as the answers from various posters seem to confirm) that there are several issues, many of them complex and with no obviously clear answers, that impact what North's various possible actions (including 3S) *should* mean from a theoretical point of view. I feel pretty strongly that it is not practical to make a fairly subtle bid in such circumstances while expecting that even an expert partner will be on the same wavelength - there are just to many ways that partner's thinking process can differ from yours.

 

This is especially true when you have an alternative call that, even if it is only second best from a purely theoretical point view, will clearly get the message across. In this case that would be 4S which to me at least would be an obvious mildish slam try with a long spade suit.

 

And that to me is the main answer to Question 16: sometimes practically has to trump theory (no, I did not expect anyone to figure out the answer I was looking for!).

 

In general I found the answers to the questions to be of a higher quality than I was expecting. That was meant as a compliment, not an insult :)

 

My main criticism of the answers is that most of the posters did not give enough consideration to some of the less common hands that the takeout DBLer might have. For example:

 

- There are 3 types of DBL-and-bid-your-suit type hands...

 

1) 5431ish hands with shortness in the opponents suit and roughly 16+ HCPs

2) Powerful playing hands with plenty of high cards and a long suit that can play opposite a singleton and which do not have support for all unbid suits. Some of these hands are strong enough to force to slam or explore for 7 after partner's cuebid. Yes, I realize that some players don't make takeout DBLs on such hands unless they have an astronomical number of HCPs.

 

- Normal strength hands with 54 or 45 in the majors. Again I realize that some people will not make takeout DBLs with such hands, but if you do and if you have 5 spades and 4 hearts, maybe South's 2S over East's DBL does not deny 4H as several people seemed to suggest?

 

- Big 4441 or 5440 hands. Maybe South should bid 4D with these? Maybe that is what 3D should be all about? That would leave room for suit agreement, cuebidding, and RKCB (which the 4D splinter-in-support-of-everything would not).

 

Several of you did well to notice the degree to which answers to some questions impact the answers to other, but I was somewhat surprised that nobody mentioned an important question that I forgot to ask:

 

Question 17: What is the expected hand for a jump to 4M in direct response to a takeout DBL?

 

I was more than somewhat surprised that few (if any) of you seemed to consider that North might have a hand like this for his cuebid:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sj432h32da32caq32]133|100[/hv]

(where to me a cuebid is normal). This is meant to be an invitational hand. If you think this hand is a game force then make it a little weaker/different.

 

I have thought about this sequence quite a bit during the past 24 hours and I still don't have answers I love to all of the questions, but one thing I have decided is I think that Question 11 is an important one that (as far as I can tell) few experts naturally consider when asked Questions 3 through 10. My latest thought on this follows (it could easily have a glaring flaw that has not occurred to me yet):

 

DBLer's Pass over opener's DBL of 2D could mean either "I have a bad hand" or "I have a strong hand with no good bid" (for example, a balanced 18+ with no diamond stopper or one of the two types of DBL-and-bid-your suit type hands). Obviously advancer plays DBLer for the bad hand and DBLer has to then catch up if he has one of the unexpected big hands.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

Fred, it's hilarious because I was going to post this hand but it was so complicated (so many issues) that I did not know which, if any, to post. This situation came up at the sectional when I was playing with Sheri. Fred, I would also like to discuss this with you and Sheri tomorrow at the sectional if you have time, and I was wondering if Hampson had any thoughts on it. See you tomorrow.

LOL - I was trying to leave names out of it thinking that it would be fun if you got involved in the thread without either of us mentioning that you were one of the players. Now everyone knows that you are the "truly great American player (seriously, one of the very best)" that I referred to in my previous post :)

 

For sure let's discuss in a few hours at the Sectional. I did talk to Hampson about the auction. He felt pretty strongly that your 3S bid was correct, but sympathized with my view that it was not a practical choice.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[whereagles]

I was more than somewhat surprised that few (if any) of you seemed to consider that North might have a hand like this for his cuebid:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sj432h32da32caq32]133|100[/hv]

(where to me a cuebid is normal). This is meant to be an invitational hand. If you think this hand is a game force then make it a little weaker/different.

 

That is indeed a 2D cue where I live and the canonical way to bid the 11+ with 4-card major variant.

 

However, that hand in particular is a tad light to bid 3S now, as it's not strong enough to GF. I do agree however that 3S is a practical bid. A bid one might very well make if weary that a forcing pass or dbl might cause a mixup.

 

These are rare auctions and you will never be 100% in the same wavelength as pard when they occur. You can mitigate with meta-rules, but there will always be scope for different interpretations.

[Fluffy]

fred the reason I don't think your 4234 11 count can be a cuebid, is because I play that jump to 2♠ is an invitatinal hand with 4 spades and 3♠ is an invitational hand with 5 spades. I know this is not very standard, specially in america.

[JLOGIC]

My reason for not liking 3S is (as the answers from various posters seem to confirm) that there are several issues, many of them complex and with no obviously clear answers, that impact what North's various possible actions (including 3S) *should* mean from a theoretical point of view. I feel pretty strongly that it is not practical to make a fairly subtle bid in such circumstances while expecting that even an expert partner will be on the same wavelength - there are just to many ways that partner's thinking process can differ from yours.

 

Fred, I agree with you 100 % about being practical over being subtle/theoretical in ambiguous spots, I hope you find me to be a practical player rather than kenrexford! :) After all, Bob Hamman and my dad were my biggest bridge influences, and to me they are both the most practical players around, focused on winning rather than having pretty auctions. As you know, I love to win!

 

That said, my biggest error was not considering/understanding how complex/ambiguous this situation was. I know since you have spent a lot of time with me recently, I am going to sound like a broken record talking about how being rational is the most important thing in life, and how overcoming our humanness/biases is what will help us become more rational, in both life and bridge, but that said...

 

I feel like I have a good grasp on what auctions will be ambiguous, and which won't. So why, on this hand, did I fail to see it (assuming you believe me that I was not just trying to make a good theoretical bid because it was pretty and I could win the post-mortem, which I'm sure you know is 100 % not the case. So what happened here?

 

Perhaps I got somewhat clouded/tilted, because had RHO passed 2H, I was going to jump to 3S which would be pretty obvious what I was doing. When RHO bid 3D, perhaps because I failed to get an opportunity to jump, my judgement was clouded about the downside of bidding 3S now. Perhaps I rationalized that it would be clear, because I wanted to bid 3S and have a cuebidding auction. Perhaps it was just being stubborn, ***** them for taking away my cuebidding auction!

 

It is funny, but it is a common error. You have a plan. Then something goes wrong. You are emotionally invested in that plan. Jumping to 3S was my plan. I was invested in it. I failed to reconsider and make a new plan when they bid 3D. Jumping to 4S seemed imperfect, my hand was too god, in my eyes. You see this thought error far more often in cardplay, especially defense. Like, you have a plan that will 100 % defeat the hand. Partner then does something else, despite how you signal. Now you're in. You stubbornly go back to your plan, when in reality partner had a different plan that would 100 % beat the hand. Now they're going to make. This is something I see commonly. You lose rationality for a moment.

 

- North was 6232 and had sufficient values to make a mildish slam try after partner's takeout double.

In this case that would be 4S which to me at least would be an obvious mildish slam try with a long spade suit.

 

I am not trying to defend my bidding, but I do *strongly* disagree with your classification of my hand as a mild slam try. For those who don't know, my hand was:

 

AKT9xx Kx Kxx xx

 

To me, this hand is enormous. If you want to downgrade my DK, that is fine, but I would then say that you are undervaluing the THIRD diamond in my opinon. To me that is such a huge card, compared to AKT9xx Kx Kx xxx for instance. It is not a full trick better, but it is pretty damn close to me with partner having an extremely likely stiff. Even if they lead a trump, if you think partner does not have 3 spades (I agree), then my partners shape is 3415. So my doubleton club offers the chance to ruff out the suit. On top of that, if I have any club or heart finesses, I can expect them to be on...the honors are well placed. Give partner Qxx Axxx x AQxxx even. Even if hey lead a trump, this slam has a lot of play, and if they lead a non trump I would say I'm in awesome shape. I do not think partner would consider moving over a jump to 4S with this hand. Maybe it is possible partner is 3424, and the opps have bid a ton, but that is the exact reason I so badly wanted to have a cuebidding auction in my mind.

 

Maybe you do not play the same style as me, but I always cuebid with an opening bid and 5 spades, followed by jumping to 4S. To me that is what mild slam try means. I dislike jumping to 4S on a hand like that, when I would also jump to 4S on KQxxxxx x xx xxx (a gambling type bid that does NOT want partner to pull, and is not HCP rich, so partner with a double and bid again hand can comfortably pass without a strong fit). I would cuebid with AJxxx xx xxx AQx followed by jumping to 4S.

 

Again, I am not saying my 3S bid is right, I no longer think that, and in fact when Sheri and I were talking about this hand with people afterwards I *fully* admitted and apologized that this was a very complex auction, and I actually said something very similar to what you said "in ambiguous spots, good/logical people can both make logical points for something different, nothing is obvious." It is really a good point that people should remember. But I did think my hand was much better than a mild slam try, maybe that is just optimism, but it is what contributed to me so badly wanting to jump to 3S over 2H if RHO passed, and have a cuebidding auction, I definitely wasn't going to bid 4S over 2H to show the mild slam try, or courtesy slam try. In fact I'm kind of thinking maybe the right bid was 5S over 3H right now...or maybe that is crazy. Maybe 3S then move over partners 4S? I will think about it, let's talk tomorrow.

[JLOGIC]

For those who would like to hear my case on why I think 3S should be a slam try in spades with 5+ spades in the theoretical sense, it is something like this:

 

1) I think that when you bid 2D, you have either:

 

1a) inv with both majors

1b) a GF hand with doubt about strain (just a 4 card major, a 4 card major + clubs, a GF hand with clubs and doubt about strain, etc, lot's of hand types fit this bill)

1c) A hand that knows what strain it's going in, but has a power rather than shape game bid, and is cuebidding to show that, in case partner has a double and bid again hand type. This could be a legit slam try or a courtesy to partner to show your hand type.

 

Over 3D, if I had 1a, I would bid 3H, not forcing. If I do not bid 3H, I have no heart fit, ergo I have 1b or 1c, both of which are game forcing hands, so pass is forcing.

 

When passes are forcing and you have doubt about strain, in general you pass. When you are sure about strain, you bid. So, with 1a I would pass. So bidding 3S is 5+ spades, and is stronger than bidding 4S, which would be spades and the courtesy cue hand. If I had a heart fit and a GF, I would bid 4D with a legit slam try, 4H without one. If I had clubs, I would bid 4C, legit slam try and stronger than 5C (courtesy) unless trying to get to 3N, in which case I would pass (doubt about strain)

 

So 3S shows the same thing it would show if RHO passed (there I would have no FP, but 2S would show the doubt about strain hand, 4S the courtesy cue, 3S the legit slam try).

 

Thus, when partner bid 4S over 3S, I thought this was the most negative bid, so I passed. At the time, in my mind, this was crystal clear! But of course in the postgame discussion with various experts about these issues, it was obvious to me that I was wrong and misguided...I've offered my reasons about why this might have happened, so I won't rehash this.

[JLOGIC]

 

I was more than somewhat surprised that few (if any) of you seemed to consider that North might have a hand like this for his cuebid:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sj432h32da32caq32]133|100[/hv]

(where to me a cuebid is normal). This is meant to be an invitational hand. If you think this hand is a game force then make it a little weaker/different.

 

 

Ah ha, well this completely identifies the crux of our disagreement! I would never have considered a cue with this hand, likely because I consider 2D-2H-2S to be GF. You say that we are forced to suit agreement, if it goes 2D-2H-2S-3C, doesn't that make this forcing? Or does 2S just imply clubs, which makes the 3C bid suit agreement. I suppose this could work...if partner has a club fit and a GF hand he bids 3D. But what if he also has a diamond stopper? I suppose responder can bid 3H now to ask for a diamond stopper, but this is getting murkier and murkier and murkier to me...

 

What about 2D-2H-2S-2N. Is this forcing? If so, we have basically game forced because we have no fit.

 

And how about if they bid something like 3D over 2D. How will partner bid, and how will everything work itself out, when you have no known suit as well as possibly not a GF hand. Had you bid 2S, at least your hand is limited and you've shown a suit.

 

I guess my personal philosophy is to just bid 2S with this hand, because if partner is rejecting your game invite, you are playing 2S in a 4-3 fit with a takeout X opposite a game invite. It is very likely to me that 2S is a playable spot in that case, I am not that concerned about playing 2S in a 4-3 isntead of 2C in a 4-4. It is kind of similar to meckwell lite after 1C 1D 1M 2C, you just scramble out into 2M when you find a 7 card fit, because you have more than half the deck so it should be playable, and the other bids are reserved for game/slam bidding.

 

Likewise here if partner has game going values over 2S, I think it will be easy to work everything out, and it makes your overloaded and vulnerable cuebid less overloaded.

 

I think we should give this hand to hampson/others (Jxxx xx Axx AQxx) and see how common it is to cuebid vs bid 2S. I am quite curious, since this is the crux of our disagreement regarding the hand types of the cuebid, and obviously it's an important one (plus you and I rarely say something like "i think 2D is normal" and the other says "I think 2S is normal") heh. Glad you posted because it is clear to me this is the difference.

[nige1]

Fred asked... [hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2d]133|100|

1: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 2D as North? A good hand with no other clear-cut descriptive alternative

2: How high are North-South forced? Until we've supported a suit, reached game, or clearly established a misfit.

[/hv][hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2dd?]133|350|

Note that East has DBLed.

3: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as South? Flat minimum. Denies ♦ stop or good 4+ M.

4: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you RDBL as South? Half-stop in ♦ to right-side notrump.

5: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2H as South? 4+ ♥.

6: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2S as South? 4+ ♠.

7: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 2NT as South? ♦ stop.

8: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3C as South? 5+ ♣.

9: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you cuebid 3D as South? Max denies ♦ stop or 4M.

10: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you jump in a suit as South? Good single suiter.

11: If you think that the cuebid promises another bid, does South have a way to suggest "I have a bad hand and I hereby relieve you of the force you created on yourself"? Yes. Pass.

[/hv][hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1ddp2dd2h3d?]133|150|

12: Would Pass be forcing? Yes

13: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you Pass as North? Denies 4+ ♥, 5+ ♠ or good ♦ stops.

14: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you DBL as North? Penalty suggestion.

15: With which sort(s) of hand(s) would you bid 3S as North? 5+ ♠.

16: What does this prove? Any agreement is better than nothing.[/hv]

[pooltuna]

q1] this of course depends on your entire doubling call structure. I would use it as having an ordered series of possible meanings. Initially it means "I can play either major, I need your preference."

q2] a 1 round force

q3] a minimum TOX with no major preference.

q4] xtras with a max of 3 cards in either major

q5] minimum TOX with ♥ preference

q6] minimum TOX with ♠ preference

q7] balanced 18-19 with ♦ stopper(s)

q8] minimum TOX with 33 majors

q9] xtras with no great preference between the majors.

q10] xtras if a major preference or a really good ♣ suit

q11] I think previous answers should make this clear

q12] no

q13] 4 card constructive raise of ♥ and ♠

q14] this is where other possible means for 2♦ kick in; really telling partner we are in a GF

q15] GF with 5+ ♠

q16] that you need to review your doubling structure from time to time :)