Good or bad 8?

[cherdano]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sakj5h632d9872c43]133|100|Scoring: MP

The bidding goes

(P)-P-(P)-1NT-(P)[/hv]

 

The 1NT by partner is 15-17; partner is a solid bidder and would need a pretty good reason to upgrade a 14 or 17 ccount (and might downgrade a bad 15 count).

 

Arend

[whereagles]

I pass 1NT. Would bid if playing keri, though.

[flytoox]

I think I will. 2N should be safe.

[inquiry]

At imps, you would just have to bid, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU ARE VUL.. if your partner has 4♠ then your ZAR count is very high (8 hcp, 3 control, 10 distr, 2 fit honors, and 1 for doubleton.. that is 26 zar points and your partner will have at least 28 or so even iwth 4333 distribution).

 

At matchpoint is a much closer issue. Problem with bidding is you may get to 2NT down one, or worse perhaps 3NT down one. Also, be honest, wouldn't you be at least tempted to pass 2♥ bid by partner, so if he is 4-4 in majors you will not find your spade fit. I think at matchpoints I would pass, based upon frequency of this being the right bid.

 

Ben

[Free]

As Ben said, in imps it's clear you have to bid. In MP's, do what you think the field will do... I think most people would invite because they have their 8 HCP, so why not? With a little bit of luck you find a ♠ fit and then you're the good guy B)

[Flame]

I would bid 2c, I think the hand got nice potential in spade contract.

After 1nt-2c-2h i play 2sp to show 4 spades and inv, this is normal when 2c doesnt promise 4 card major, and i would be very happy if partner leave it with 3 card spade suit.

2c is what the field will bid so thats good too.

[pclayton]

MP's, all conditions I pass. IMPs vul I bid; and try 2N over 2D. NV I pass 2D and hope we arent in a 4-2. Over 2H I bid 2S.

 

Great hand for Keri btw.

[hotShot]

I bid 2♣!

 

P has max. 2 points for the queen in ♠. So he has at least 13 in other suits.

 

If he does not have 4♠, you can still play 2♠ or 2♥ with 4-3 fit.

And if he does not have a 4card major, you p should have enough card in the minors to stop them.

If you don't see a 8 cards ♠, a minimum partner can pass your 2NT rebid.

 

If you don't fit, opps won't fit too.

 

Tell we what is the killing lead after 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT?

 

Yes you might go down, but most of the field will go down with you.

I think even at MP's there is more to win than to loose.

[luke warm]

two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?

 

if i judged this hand worth an invite (i don't), and if i played my present system over a strong nt, the bidding would be:

 

1nt : 2c

2d : 2h*

 

2h= <4 hearts, might have 4 spades.. opener bids 2s with 4 else 2nt... is this much different from keri? thx

[the hog]

"two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?"

You don't do either Jimmy.

Keri would bid

 

1N 2C 2D 2S = 4/5 S invit. opener now makes the decision.

[pclayton]

two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?

 

if i judged this hand worth an invite (i don't), and if i played my present system over a strong nt, the bidding would be:

 

1nt : 2c

2d : 2h*

 

2h= <4 hearts, might have 4 spades.. opener bids 2s with 4 else 2nt... is this much different from keri? thx

Partner doesnt actually ever 'show' when I invite with this hand. Its just 1N - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠, which shows 4 or 5 spades an an invite. Partner's rebids:

 

Pass - minimum w/ 3 spades

2N - minimum w/o 3 spades

3♣ - useful 4432, but minimum

3♦ - maximum with 4333

3 ♥ - max with 5 hearts w/o 3 spades

3♠ - invite with 4 spades

3N - max w/o 4 spades

4♠ - max with 4 spades

[1eyedjack]

two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?

 

if i judged this hand worth an invite (i don't), and if i played my present system over a strong nt, the bidding would be:

 

1nt : 2c

2d : 2h*

 

2h= <4 hearts, might have 4 spades.. opener bids 2s with 4 else 2nt... is this much different from keri? thx

Partner doesnt actually ever 'show' when I invite with this hand. Its just 1N - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠, which shows 4 or 5 spades an an invite. Partner's rebids:

 

Pass - minimum w/ 3 spades

2N - minimum w/o 3 spades

3♣ - useful 4432, but minimum

3♦ - maximum with 4333

3 ♥ - max with 5 hearts w/o 3 spades

3♠ - invite with 4 spades

3N - max w/o 4 spades

4♠ - max with 4 spades

 

Cannot opener pass 2S with a minimum and 4 card support, in Keri? I suppose that he is under considerable pressure to bid 3S with 4 card support, given doubt over whether responder has 4 or 5.

 

Like Luke Warm, I commit to 2NT when you have only a 4-3 Spade fit and opener is minimum. In the long term 2S is likely to be better, but not by a lot, and in the short term it could go either way (or there may be no advantage either way).

 

Where we appear to gain over Keri is that we absolutely commit to 2S rather than 3S when there is an 8 card fit and opener is rejecting the game try.

 

And I get to play in 2S when you have a 5-2 Spade fit. Presumably with Keri opener has to pull to 2NT, as 2S on a possible 4-2 fit does not reckon to gain.

 

To answer the original question, I invite with this hand. That Jack is worth more than it might be elsewhere. 50% of the time it is going to be worth a Queen.

Cannot opener pass 2S with a minimum and 4 card support, in Keri?

[the hog]

"Cannot opener pass 2S with a minimum and 4 card support, in Keri?"

 

Of course he can if he does not like his hand, particularly if it contains lots of quacks. Incidentally rdk,(Klinger), has changed Keri a bit since the original book was published.

[nikos59]

For me it is an obvious pass at MPs, even

thinking about bidding is a gross overbid.

(I would probably also pass at imps.)

 

n

[joker_gib]

Pass at MP's

2♣ at IMP's ;)

[whereagles]

Incidentally rdk,(Klinger), has changed Keri a bit since the original book was published.

Did he publish anything of the new stuff, or is it still top secret? ;)

[Fluffy]

2♣ always.

 

I am probably influenced by the fact I did play 16-18 NT untill 2002.

[mr1303]

I'm not sure what version of Keri you guys are playing, but as I understood it raises of a major in the invitational sequence are as follows:

 

After 1NT 2C 2D 2S

 

3C = 4 trumps, useful minimum, 4432 pattern.

3D = Any max 4333 (even with 4S

3S = Max WITH EXACTLY 3 TRUMPS

4S = Max with 4 trumps (not 4333)

[pclayton]

I'm not sure what version of Keri you guys are playing, but as I understood it raises of a major in the invitational sequence are as follows:

 

After 1NT 2C 2D 2S

 

3C = 4 trumps, useful minimum, 4432 pattern.

3D = Any max 4333 (even with 4S

3S = Max WITH EXACTLY 3 TRUMPS

4S = Max with 4 trumps (not 4333)

He he; I'm always botching these up at the table; should be evident from my posts.

 

As far as playing a 5-2 fit; if the hand is a bust; obviously we just transfer. And if the hand is an invite, we play 2N. Doesn't seem to be a great loss.

[Flame]

I surpise by the answers, i think if i asked this question in an Israely forum i would get 90%+ of ppl bidding 2c.

What does 2c show in your systems ? i was thought many years ago and im still teaching now that 2c = 8 or more hcp, did you learn it as good 8 hcp ?

Im not saying that passing is bad and as a serious underbidder that i am , i might like it, but to see so many passing it, is surprising to me.

[cherdano]

What does 2c show in your systems ? i was thought many years ago and im still teaching now that 2c = 8 or more hcp, did you learn it as good 8 hcp ?

What does it show? Well at least an invitation opposite a 1NT. Which means I expect good odds to make game opposite partner's 16-17 points (he will accept more often than not).

 

When I first learned bridge, I was taught that you invite with good 8 or 9 points (hence the catch-phrase in the heading). That still seems reasonable to me, except I will bid game on many 9 point hands.

 

Arend

[Flame]

When I first learned bridge, I was taught that you invite with good 8 or 9 points (hence the catch-phrase in the heading). That still seems reasonable to me, except I will bid game on many 9 point hands.

 

Arend

The header suggest that with good 8 i will bid and with bad 8 i will not.

its not the same as to say, invite when you have 8 , and also invite when you have 9, which is how i understood my teacher.

Anyway its intresting.

[mikestar]

Any scoring, any vulnerability, I will bid 2C intending to invite game.

 

This hand starts out at 8 points, but gains value for honor concentration so call it 8 1/2. For suit play, it also gains value for extra controls (I have 3 controls in an 8point hand, a "normal" 3 control hand has 10 points). I'd allow another 1/2 point for spades for this. Then add a point for shape and I have 10 points--but partner may only be worth about 14 for suit play, as he may be 4-3-3-3, so inviting is enough.

[luke warm]

i'm sure mike is right, but his reasons for inviting are almost mine for passing... now if the spade suit was 5 pcs, with the same hcp, i'd invite... yes it's a nice 7/8 points, but no real source of tricks... of course, inviting might be right... who knows?

[pclayton]

FWIW, K and R calls this 8.9