answering a take out double with 3145

[Fluffy]

♠A83

♥5

♦Q1065

♣AQJ74

 

 

1♣-(2♥)-double-(pass)

??

 

nobody vul, MPs. New suits instead of double would all be forcing.

[whereagles]

Anything is good: 2S, 3C, 3D are all ok. I think 3D need not show extras, but that's something you need to discuss with pard.

 

Personally I would try 2S, just in case pard has 7-9 with 5 cards there.

[aguahombre]

Either 1♣ was unprepared, or it was prepared to rebid clubs. 3D must show extra values IMO, since it is not a suit shown by the negative double.

 

In any case, if I was planning to raise 1S to 2S with this hand, I can't imagine doing anything else but bidding 2S now. In effect, partner has responded 1S, plus she has enough to make the neg double at this level. Nothing has changed for me, as opener.

[jschafer]

I agree with the above post.

[jillybean]

I open 1♦ to minimise this problem.

[karlson]

I think 2n should just be scrambling here, but I would probably bid 2♠ anyway.

[mikeh]

I open 1♦ to minimise this problem.

This is a perennial topic for debate, but, if you open 1♦ and partner bids 1♥, your rebid is 1N, or 2♣? Both are profoundly flawed: the first means you have NEVER bid your AQJxx suit (and you have the problems about whether and when partner should commit to his major) and the second will be less than optimal should partner be stuck with something like 4=4=2=3 and an 8 or 9 count, on which the technically correct call is the false preference to 2♦ (not to mention the more common 4=5=2=2 weak hand)

 

As it is, on the OP, I would bid 2♠ for the reasons given by aguahombre.

 

And 3♦, logically, has to show extra values.....it forces partner to raise the level in order to return to clubs, so meets every definition of a reverse. While over a 1♠ overcall, bidding 2♦ in response to the negative double shows, imo, 'some extras', in this auction, in which we are bidding at the 3-level and partner has to take preference, when preference is needed, at the 4 level, 3♦ should show, again imo, 'substantial extras'.

[ggwhiz]

if you open 1♦ and partner bids 1♥, your rebid is 1N, or 2♣?

 

I've had a lot of lucky MP results bidding 1♠ on these auctions when the 4-3 fit plays very well. Started experimenting with it when I read that Meckwell invented support doubes because they were getting to too many 3-3 fits and I wondered how.

 

Much more danger of a foul split in this auction but I would still bid 2♠.

[Phil]

2♠. A bit uncomfortable doing so, but hopefully partner does not hang me. 3♦ shows extras, and 2N is natural.

[Fluffy]

I think a healthy style is to open 1♦ unless your clubs are a suit that can play opposite singleton.

 

I never though 3♦ showed extras, for me double shows 2 palces to play, and if partner doesn't have diamonds he will have long clubs to retreat

[WellSpyder]

I never though 3♦ showed extras, for me double shows 2 palces to play, and if partner doesn't have diamonds he will have long clubs to retreat

Similar questions have been discussed in the past, eg as in the OP but with a 1♥ overcall rather than 2♥. As I recall, all the Americans insist opener bidding ♦s shows extra values, many Europeans don't - I'm not sure about other parts of the world.

[aguahombre]

Similar questions have been discussed in the past, eg as in the OP but with a 1♥ overcall rather than 2♥. As I recall, all the Americans insist opener bidding ♦s shows extra values, many Europeans don't - I'm not sure about other parts of the world.

I believe the disagreement stems from terminology of the negative double itself. Even though it usually shows (or denies) the other major, it is not in the same category as other "takeout" doubles. Responsive doubles after partner's takeout double are similar, in that they don't really show the presence of two suits to play, but rather they show values to compete with no real suits.

 

People even use "takeout" to describe the general category of Support Doubles, Snapdragon Doubles, and others---they are probably right, but it is not right to advance these doubles in the same way one would respond to a traditional low-level initial takeout double such as we all learned in Bridge 101.

[han]

I play that this (negative) double shows spades.

[mikeh]

Similar questions have been discussed in the past, eg as in the OP but with a 1♥ overcall rather than 2♥. As I recall, all the Americans insist opener bidding ♦s shows extra values, many Europeans don't - I'm not sure about other parts of the world.

I'm not an American, and in these parts, the standard meaning is that bidding diamonds shows extras. I'd be interested in the logic behind the idea that it need not, given that partner may hold a minimum with spades and a modest club fit.

[aguahombre]

I'm not an American.

North American? Some of our Canadian neighbors get really bent out of shape when lumped in with us. Justifiably, IMO.

 

OTOH, we have some nerve unofficially calling our country America. We are only part of a huge land mass ---two continents; and one of our states is not part of that land mass.

Edited November 16, 2011 by aguahombre

[Fluffy]

I tried 2♠ it came back like these:

 

 

1♣-( 2♥ )- X -(pass)

2♠-(pass)-4♠-(X)

??

[aguahombre]

u bid, u rebid, partner placed the contract without further consulation. What could possibly be the question now?

[gordontd]

I tried 2♠ it came back like these:

 

 

1♣-( 2♥ )- X -(pass)

2♠-(pass)-4♠-(X)

??

I'm not unhappy yet.

[shevek]

I'm not an American, and in these parts, the standard meaning is that bidding diamonds shows extras. I'd be interested in the logic behind the idea that it need not, given that partner may hold a minimum with spades and a modest club fit.

 

Dealing with a 1♥ overcall is very different.

Some of us from South of the border respond 1♠ with spades.

 

For us, 1♣ - (1♥) - X

 

denies 4 ♠s & strongly suggests ♦s. Hence 2♦ by opener does not show extras.

Responder might have

 

♠Kx ♥Txx ♦Qxxxx ♣Kxx

[mikeh]

Dealing with a 1♥ overcall is very different.

Some of us from South of the border respond 1♠ with spades.

 

For us, 1♣ - (1♥) - X

 

denies 4 ♠s & strongly suggests ♦s. Hence 2♦ by opener does not show extras.

Responder might have

 

♠Kx ♥Txx ♦Qxxxx ♣Kxx

I had intended to address the OP sequence, not the 1♥ sequence. FWIW, I prefer double of 1♥ as 5+ spades (but excluding some 6+ spade hands shown by 2♥) with 1♠ as the 'I have values to get involved but no descriptive bid' hand, which in practice always includes 4+ diamonds when partner bid 1♣ (can't raise clubs, lacks 4♠ and can't bid 1N).

[gnasher]

If partner had a 10-count and five spades he'd have bid 2♠, not double. Hence we're probably in a 4-3 fit, somebody has doubled, and I have to play it. I can see some reasons for unhappiness, but I have nowhere to go.

 

Partner should realise that 2♠ is often bid on a three-card suit, so he should usually avoid bidding 4♠ with only four of them - he can also bid 3NT or 3♥ to explore alternatives. This 4♠ bid implies, therefore, that he doesn't think we have any alternative strain.

[JLOGIC]

Id run

[paulg]

Partner should realise that 2♠ is often bid on a three-card suit ...

It's surprising how many people forget this in the heat of battle. They need to enter bidding challenges or read these forums more.

[phil_20686]

And 3♦, logically, has to show extra values.....it forces partner to raise the level in order to return to clubs, so meets every definition of a reverse. While over a 1♠ overcall, bidding 2♦ in response to the negative double shows, imo, 'some extras', in this auction, in which we are bidding at the 3-level and partner has to take preference, when preference is needed, at the 4 level, 3♦ should show, again imo, 'substantial extras'.

 

Not if you open one club with, say 3-4-4-2.

 

Agree that 3d must show extras if it necessarily shows longer clubs.

[jdeegan]

:P 2♠ the first time for reasons well-explained in this thread. After 4♠-double, I too want to run, but how? Expecting pard to treat 4NT as being for minors is too obscure for me, and he is unlikely to have a double ♥ stop. 5♣ seems the least of evils. Does RHO look like a player holding five spades and four clubs? Good players usually won't double 4 spades unless they are prepared to double any run out. 5♦ puts all our chances in pard having four or five. If I had another king, I might pass and try to brute it out.