Which raise? (a multi part question)

[Antrax]

All vul, matchpoints. Partner deals and opens 1♠. This comes as a surprise, as this is your hand:

♠AK87

♥AQ642

♦43

♣AT

 

We play 2/1 and jacoby NT. 2♥ here must be a five-card suit (not sure if this is standard in 2/1 or not).

a) is it better to show the four-card support or show the side suit while game forcing?

 

I chose 2NT. The auction continued:

1♠-2NT, 3NT (15-17, no shortness)-4♣ (cue), 4♦-4♥, 4♠-4NT, 5♦ (1/4)

b) Now I deliberated between Q ask and 5NT. Which is better here? (5NT for us is specific kings)

 

I chose 5NT mostly as a way to let partner know we have all the key cards.

so 5NT, 6♣

c) And again I deliberated between 6♠, 6NT or continued probing.

As I was in love with my hand, I chose 6♥ (which asks for the king of hearts). Partner bid 6♠, which brings us to the next question:

d) Should I bid 6NT? I never know when to do that.

 

And finally:

e) Should we be in grand? Below is partner's hand:

♠T9643

♥KJ9

♦AK

♣K82

 

After the easy 6♠+1 (spades were 2-2), partner said he didn't bid the grand despite the ♥K as he already upgraded his 14-count and was worried we have a trump loser.

[flametree]

a) My immediate response was that no, I would not show the heart suit at this point. Thinking more, I can see the advantages - finding out partner has 3x hearts will certainly make finding the right slam a little easier, while RKCB in hearts will pinpoint the KH situation. 1S-2H certainly does promise a 5-card suit in 2/1.

 

I struggle a bit with later questions because I'm not sure I understand the reply to 2NT - 15-17 no shortage. So 5-4-2-2 without a decent 4-card suit? or 6-3-2-2? Can it be 5-3-3-2, or would partner always have opened that 1NT? 5-3-3-2 hands actually seem to give slam, and grand slam, a better chance than 5-4-2-2 where the second suit is not worth bidding, since partner is more likely to have 3x hearts.

 

b) The trump queen seems a relevant card since partner's shown a balanced hand, implying we only have a 9-card fit. So I would certainly queen-ask. You can bid 6H later. On finding out partner doesn't have the trump queen, I'd bid 6S.

 

c) I wouldn't be here, but having got to this point by assuming the trump situation is ok, it's hardly dreaming to think of 5x trumps, 5x hearts, and three minor suit top tricks, so I agree with 6H.

 

I don't agree with your partner's 6S bid. Since you didn't make a queen ask he should assume you have AKxxx or AKQx of trumps. Your 6H bid can only show a long suit, in which he has not only the K but KJx, making 4+ tricks in the suit all but certain.

 

You were heading for a 50-50 grand slam, and a top or a bottom. As said, I wouldn't have bid it missing the trump queen, but it would have worked this time.

 

Final point, no, I wouldn't try 6NT when partner hasn't got the heart king. You need no trump losers and probably a finesse to work. However, if partner shows up with the KH then 7NT might be worth a gamble, though again, if partner is more likely to be 5-4-2-2 with a bad second suit than 5-3-3-2, I'd stick to spades.

[aguahombre]

Sure, you should be in 6NT. We can see both hands. We should be in 7NT. We know all four hands, now.

 

I would be so busy looking for the grand and then not finding it because we are missing the spade queen that I wouldn't find 6NT.

 

Not having J2N available, we would easily find the double fit in the Majors early on after 1S-2H. Then we would have 6 keys, discover the missing spade queen and bail out in 6♠. Spades are a known 9 card fit, hearts are not. The heart jack makes it irrelevant which suit is trumps; but we can't know that, so spades will be trump.

 

As a side note, upgrading then backing off because one is sorry (s)he upgraded often turns out badly and affects partnership confidence for the future. On the given hand, you got lucky to stay out of the anti-percentage grand, but unlucky the spades broke 2-2.

[Antrax]

I didn't think about why partner didn't open 1NT during the auction, thanks for pointing it out. Now I wonder why we have that 3NT rebid (we just took the entire Jacoby structure for some book).

[MrAce]

All vul, matchpoints. Partner deals and opens 1♠. This comes as a surprise, as this is your hand:

♠AK87

♥AQ642

♦43

♣AT

 

We play 2/1 and jacoby NT. 2♥ here must be a five-card suit (not sure if this is standard in 2/1 or not).

a) is it better to show the four-card support or show the side suit while game forcing?

 

I chose 2NT. The auction continued:

1♠-2NT, 3NT (15-17, no shortness)-4♣ (cue), 4♦-4♥, 4♠-4NT, 5♦ (1/4)

b) Now I deliberated between Q ask and 5NT. Which is better here? (5NT for us is specific kings)

 

I chose 5NT mostly as a way to let partner know we have all the key cards.

so 5NT, 6♣

c) And again I deliberated between 6♠, 6NT or continued probing.

As I was in love with my hand, I chose 6♥ (which asks for the king of hearts). Partner bid 6♠, which brings us to the next question:

d) Should I bid 6NT? I never know when to do that.

 

And finally:

e) Should we be in grand? Below is partner's hand:

♠T9643

♥KJ9

♦AK

♣K82

 

After the easy 6♠+1 (spades were 2-2), partner said he didn't bid the grand despite the ♥K as he already upgraded his 14-count and was worried we have a trump loser.

 

 

A-2♥

 

B- Ask Q, if pd doesnt have it u are done with grandslam, if he has it he will show u the K he has anyway while saying yes to your question. But if u are going to asl specific kings here is a suggestion, works great when trumps are ♠

 

5NT---6♣ (♣K or 2 red kings) 6♦ (♦K or ♥+♣ kings) 6♥(♥K or both minor kings) 6♠=i dont have any king

 

C/D - 6NT

 

E- No, not without ♠ QJ imo.

[han]

Two comments:

 

- A grand slam where you need (more or less) trumps to split 2-2 is not good. You definitely want to ask for the trump queen.

 

- Partner had a 14 count, not 15-17.

[gwnn]

-You shouldn't be in grand here.

-Why your partner upgraded his hand is a mystery, but now that he has done so, he should trust you and bid 7 when you asked him a flat out question about the ♥K! Two lies don't make a truth.

-Keep it simple and bid your major or minor suit slams (and not 6NT) whenever you have a fit and you can't count 12 tricks. Here you know partner doesn't have the ♥K so you don't have a lot of tricks. 6NT is odds-against from what you can tell. BTW so is 6♠ but it's a little better.

[Antrax]

MrAce, what is the case for the 2♥ raise? On this hand it would be great, since partner can raise to 3 and then I can KC and find the heart K. In general, though, the auction is expected to continue 2♠ which I raise to 3, which shows a GF raise with 3 trumps. Now partner is likely to just sign off, as it's unlikely I have AKQ spades. No?

[Mbodell]

a) I think J2NT is fine, 2♥ is fine (I'd probably bid 2♥, but I don't quibble with J2NT). The nice thing about J2NT is we will likely be captain and we probably know partner's hand better than he'll expect our control rich 17, even for a 2/1 response. Given the 3nt response the club cue makes sense, but once he cue's diamonds, I think you should keycard. All you care about are the keycards, the K, and the solidity of the trump suit. Which would bring us to:

 

b) If you keycard and hear 1 kc you should probably trump queen ask and when you find out it is missing settle for 6♠. If he had it then you should ask for kings (or for the ♥K if he shows it and a lower K) and find your grand. Now it is true that you are more than 50% (just shy of 58%) to make it if his suit is JT9xx even though he is missing the Q and even Jxxxx is more than 50% (just over 53%). Even the unlucky T9xxx is good for no losers a little over 46% of the time, so not horrible. And partner could always have a 6 card suit (although with that he should show the Q). So skipping the Q ask isn't outrageous. It might be interesting to sim how often you have 13 tricks and stop in 6 versus how often you have only 12 and end up in 7. But against most fields some will not even find slam, and an unlucky ruff or other issue could pop up, so a 50/50 trump suit grand may not really offer 50/50 odds.

 

c) You have to continue probing. 5♦ is a legit probe since if you knew partner had ♦AK but not ♥K you'd want to be in 6nt. If partner has ♥K you want to be in 7nt. If partner has neither red K you probably want to be in 6♠, since partner for the opening nearly certainly has ♣Q if no red K which lets you pitch the diamond loser. So I think a 6♦ ask would be right assuming partner can still show the ♥K when he doesn't have the ♦K and also when he does have the ♦K. If you aren't sure (or he isn't sure) then 6♥ is a fine ask.

 

d) Presumably a 6♠ call says I don't have the ♥K (nor any super surprising source of tricks) and then I think you should pass. It is true that if he has the ♦AK, which is not that unlikely given the no ♥K that you'd want to be in 6nt, but given you are already winging it in spades and are already in slam I think passing 6♠ is better.

 

e) Your partner should bid on, probably 7♦ to show the heart K and the extras in diamonds. But even if he "just" bids 7♠ you can count on 5 hearts, 5 spades, 2 clubs, and 1 diamond and that works out to 13 in no trump.

[Mbodell]

MrAce, what is the case for the 2♥ raise? On this hand it would be great, since partner can raise to 3 and then I can KC and find the heart K. In general, though, the auction is expected to continue 2♠ which I raise to 3, which shows a GF raise with 3 trumps. Now partner is likely to just sign off, as it's unlikely I have AKQ spades. No?

 

Presumably you play frivolous or serious 3nt so if partner does bid 4♠ over 1♠-2♥-2♠-3♠ then he has an absolute dog and you don't want to be in slam. Over the expected frivolous 3nt call, you'd cue clubs and hear partner cue diamonds and then you could key card. And if partner can't cue diamonds you know to play only 4.

[Antrax]

Oh. Thanks. We play neither at the moment :(

[Cyberyeti]

What do you play 1♠-3♥ as ? (we play it showing HHxxx in suit bid plus Hxxx in partner's suit (H = AKQ), 12+ or the traditional one suited rock crusher, any rebid other than 4 of my suit or 3N shows the fit hand).

 

No I don't want to be in the grand.

[Antrax]

3♥ would be weak with a long suit. Invitational with a long suit would go through forcing 1NT first.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I've mentioned this before: The partner holding sidesuit KINGS should do the asking -- It's easier to find Aces than Kings.

Now, whether the Opener with 10-5th of trumps will do so is a different matter.

 

Anyway, using your initial sequence, Opener is in the position to settle in 6NT.

 

However, one other key ingredient is missing -- Opener doesn't know about the Ht suit as a source of tricks.

Sooo, that auction ( w/Opener asking ) will also end up in 6S when the trump Q is determined to be missing .

 

1S - Jac2NT

3NT! - 4C

4D - 4H

4NT - 5D ( 1/4 )

5H!( sQ-ask) - 5S ( nope )

6S

[Antrax]

Knowing that hearts was a source of tricks was the reason I considered a 2♥ game force. I'm still not sure why prefer that or J2N, to be honest.

[nigel_k]

If you ask for the trump queen and partner has it, he should continue by showing specific kings. That way you don't have to choose which you want to ask about.

[MrAce]

MrAce, what is the case for the 2♥ raise? On this hand it would be great, since partner can raise to 3 and then I can KC and find the heart K. In general, though, the auction is expected to continue 2♠ which I raise to 3, which shows a GF raise with 3 trumps. Now partner is likely to just sign off, as it's unlikely I have AKQ spades. No?

 

Responding 2/1 over a major does not deny a 4 card support to start with as an answer to your question. It also makes pd focus on the suit we mention more than the suits that are less important for us.

 

Knowing that hearts was a source of tricks was the reason I considered a 2♥ game force. I'm still not sure why prefer that or J2N, to be honest.

You are on right track, u knew the source of tricks and by bidding 2♥ you would share this important detail with your pd instead of trying to take total control of the bidding.

 

And it is not about it being great for this hand, u do not need to set the wrong trump in order to learn the ♥ K, if pd raises to 3♥ i think you shd bid 3♠ instead of asking keycards on ♥ suit because as i said earlier ♠Q is a vital card for you as well, you can learn ♥K when trumps are set to ♠ but you can not learn ♠Q if trumps are set to ♥ (unless u play some sort of fancy 6 keycard but i am trying to be simple in B/I forums)

 

I disagree that u shd not play 6NT. Because u said pd showed 15-17, we are playing mp and i also have 17 hcp. I am having hard time to construct too many hands that doesnt make 6 NT but makes 6♠. Why pd did not open 1 NT is irrelevant since i dont know your system, maybe he is one of those who doesnt open NT with a 5 card major. Everyone will be in 6NT if pd really has an 15-17 hcp and responder has 17 hcp, it will be a very bad score imo to play 6♠ even if there is a hand where we can make 6♠ and not 6 NT.

[MrAce]

Also it is good to know if pd has 3+ ♥ or 2 ♥ if balanced.

 

Imagine bidding went, with std jacoby

 

1♠--2NT

4♠

 

And pd holds one of these;

Qxxxx Kx AKx xxx

Qxxxx Kxx AKx xx,

 

one of them makes grandslam with 3-2 ♥ other will not even make 6NT unless 3-3 ♥

 

Difference is HUGE.

[flametree]

I am having hard time to construct too many hands that doesnt make 6 NT but makes 6♠.

 

If you assume partner has QS and has denied the KH, then with only 5x spade winners and potentially only 1 or 2 heart winners, you need a lot of minor suit tricks. For instance :

 

QJxxx - xx - AK - KQxx

 

needs the heart finesse to make 12 tricks, and

 

QJxxx - xx - AKxx - KQ

 

needs KH onside and a 3-3 split.

 

If partner did have the KH, then 6NT may still not be right :

 

QJxxx - Kx - AJxx - KQ

 

QJxxx - Kx - AK - Qxxx

 

If the defence finds the right lead, you need 3-3 hearts to make 12 tricks in no-trumps. (Actually, you'll make 13).

 

I know 6S isn't cold in all of these, but it would make on most reasonable splits.

 

 

If you had asked for the QS and learned you didn't have it,

 

Jxxxx - Kx - AQxx - KQ

 

Jxxxx - Kx - AQ - KQxx

 

If the one of the majors splits but not both, 6NT is down off a diamond lead if the king is offside. 6S will make (the AQ will be protected from the lead) if either major splits.

[MrAce]

If you assume partner has QS and has denied the KH, then with only 5x spade winners and potentially only 1 or 2 heart winners, you need a lot of minor suit tricks. For instance :

 

QJxxx - xx - AK - KQxx

 

needs the heart finesse to make 12 tricks, and

 

QJxxx - xx - AKxx - KQ

 

needs KH onside and a 3-3 split.

 

If partner did have the KH, then 6NT may still not be right :

 

QJxxx - Kx - AJxx - KQ

 

QJxxx - Kx - AK - Qxxx

 

If the defence finds the right lead, you need 3-3 hearts to make 12 tricks in no-trumps. (Actually, you'll make 13).

 

I know 6S isn't cold in all of these, but it would make on most reasonable splits.

splits.

 

I never said there are no hands. And with all due respect i will skip the hands where u gave KQ tide vs my Ax. On the other hand u are incorrect with your anaylsis, first of all, in order to go down in 6NT (it will be played by pd but still) , 1-They need to lead ♣ 2-♣ K has to be in wrong hand for us C-♥ are not 3-3 (regarding the hand QJxxx-Kx-AK-Qxxx) and other analysis is also wrong about the hand (QJxxx xx AK KQxx), i need both ♥ and ♣J finesses to fail in order to go down in 6NT. They are not relying on 3-3♥ only.

 

As u said 6♠ is not cold in all the hands u gave.

 

 

 

 

 

If you had asked for the QS and learned you didn't have it,

 

Jxxxx - Kx - AQ - KQxx

 

If the one of the majors splits but not both, 6NT is down off a diamond lead if the king is offside. 6S will make (the AQ will be protected from the lead) if either major splits.

 

You forgot an important detail here, when pd does not have ♠Q, we will not have the luxury to learn about ♥K, unless we ask specific kings for correct slam.

 

I never said i bid jacoby 2NT and grab the NT from my side, there is a good chance pd will declare 6NT after 2♥ and serious 3NT. Not that it warranths 6NT and as i said i would always bid 6♠ in imps. Perhaps i am too greedy. :) Perhaps i consider that pd may also have 16 or 17 hcps, perhaps i hoped our AKQ doesnt collect only 2 tricks (Ax vs KQ)

[flametree]

Perhaps i am too greedy. :) Perhaps u are too pessimistic, try some 16 or 17 hcps pd may have with 5332 hands.

 

I may well be too pessimistic; per the OP's auction, it felt like we had got very high and I still didn't quite have a feel for partner's hand, so I thought it sensible to play in the "safe" 9 card trump fit. In favour of no-trumps are the long side suit, double holds in at least 3 suits, maybe 4, and also the (original Jacoby) auction has given very little help to the defence - so if there is a killing lead, they may not find it. I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone a top board if they chose 6NT, and I agree that I would be worried that many in the room may have opened partner's hand 1NT, after which 6NT seems very likely to be bid. I'm still not sure it's making though, so I'd probably stick to 6S. <_<

 

I agree that 5-3-3-2 hands seem more likely to be good for either grand or 6NT since partner likely has 3x hearts. My main problem with the auction was that I wasn't clear what "15-17 no shortage" might mean as a response to 1S-2NT and I deliberately didn't include 5-3-3-2 hands because partner didn't open 1NT. Partner has at best QJT9x in spades, so even die-hard 1S bidders with that shape would be tempted to open 1NT given the slow winners in the long suit.

 

 

excluding the hands again that you packed KQ tide vs my Ax doubleton

 

Partner has lots of points in the minors, but seemingly a doubleton in one of them. KQ doubleton is hardly out of the question.

 

 

I never said i bid jacoby 2NT and grab the NT from my side

 

Even if you begin 1S-2H won't no-trumps still be bid from your side? Genuine question, it seems more likely that I'll be the one bidding 4NT or deciding to bid 6NT if we've avoided it up till then? I agree with an earlier poster (TWO4BRIDGE) who said that it's the player with the kings who should go ace-asking, but if that isn't the strong hand, it can be difficult to persuade partner to do it.

[the hog]

I would certainly bid 2H on this, as I like to show a source of tricks. You want to be in 6, not 7 as 7 requires a 2-2 break.

[MrAce]

 

 

 

 

Even if you begin 1S-2H won't no-trumps still be bid from your side? Genuine question, it seems more likely that I'll be the one bidding 4NT or deciding to bid 6NT if we've avoided it up till then? I agree with an earlier poster (TWO4BRIDGE) who said that it's the player with the kings who should go ace-asking, but if that isn't the strong hand, it can be difficult to persuade partner to do it.

 

It depends, for example, assume he doesnt have ♥ fit.

 

1♠-2♥

2♠-3♠

3NT(for cue purposes serious/unserious 3nt)

 

Or

 

1♠--2♥

2NT...

 

In the original hand if i bid with my pd he is grabbing NT, but thats hardly an evidence for other pairs of course.

 

Partner has lots of points in the minors, but seemingly a doubleton in one of them. KQ doubleton is hardly out of the question.

 

Its not out of question of course. I find it unlikely or unlucky, as it would be very lucky to find KJ tide ♥. Note that when i suggested 6NT, the auction started with jacoby 2NT and responder had no clue about the ♥ length of opener untill dummy hits the table. All he knew (and said) was pd has 15/17 hcp balanced or semi balanced hand and that pd doesnt have ♥K. I may have overlooked at the dangers of 6NT with so many hcps combined.

[flametree]

I would certainly bid 2H on this, as I like to show a source of tricks. You want to be in 6, not 7 as 7 requires a 2-2 break.

 

I assume you play 2/1? If 2H wasn't game-forcing would you be less keen?

[MrAce]

I assume you play 2/1? If 2H wasn't game-forcing would you be less keen?

 

 

We play 2/1 and jacoby NT. 2♥ here must be a five-card suit (not sure if this is standard in 2/1 or not).

 

 

OP asked the question mentioning the system, regardless of what we personally play, it is correct to debate in the highlighted system.