How would you bid these?

[Hanoi5]

[hv=pc=n&s=shkt2dakqt2ckt832&n=sqt2haqj3dj93caq4&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1d(2+%2C%2011-15)p1hp3cp3sp]266|200[/hv]

 

Truth is it went downhill from there and somehow we landed in 6♦. We won 12, I won't complain but I'd like to know:

 

Is this better opened 1♣ (16+ any hand)?

How does responder show his hand after 3♣?

How do I get to 7 this way?

[Zelandakh]

Perhaps not what you are looking for but for me it goes

 

1D = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal

... - 1H = INV+ relay

2C = max, 4+ clubs, GF

... - 2D = relay

2S = 5-5 or better minors

... - 2NT = relay

3C = 0355 or 1255

... - 3D = relay

3H = 0355

... - 3S = relay

4D = 5 controls

... - 4NT = queen ask

5C = no CQ

... - 6D = non-forcing queen ask

6H = DQ, no HQ

... - 7D

 

This would be a much more interesting hand at MPs imho.

[Flameous]

I wouldn't open 1C, even though I have the playing strength, I need to start showing shape.

Seems quite hard hand without special methods. Maybe with 4S now if it's void showing. Still hard to check for all key cards.

 

My auction:

 

1D - 1H (Nat, unbal, may have longer C / nat or GF relay)

1S - 1NT (4+C, any strength / weak, asking for longer minor or GF relay)

2H - 2S (15-17 with 3H / relay)

3S - ? (0355)

 

Now you can actually count all the HCP in opener's hand excluding the CJ and just bid 7.

[Free]

It's a good start, now I'd bid 4♥ after which North should be looking for grand imo. He knows we have a 0=3=5=5 with 14-15HCP, so we're missing a J or a Q. North has a chance for briliancy if he thinks of bidding 7♥.

[MickyB]

It's a good start, now I'd bid 4♥ after which North should be looking for grand imo. He knows we have a 0=3=5=5 with 14-15HCP, so we're missing a J or a Q. North has a chance for briliancy if he thinks of bidding 7♥.

 

What would you bid over 3S with 1255?

[hrothgar]

This is a tough hand...

 

It's very easy to construct a strong club auction that gets you to 7♦. Playing MOSCITO, the auction might start

 

1♣ - 1♦ (artificial game force)

 

the 1♣ opener has a minimum opener show he will relay out a 0=3=5=5 shape and it should be impossible to miss 7.

 

With this said and done, if I'm sitting on the South hand I ave no reason to expect a nice uncontested auction.

I'm short in both majors, which means that I have no reason to expect a nice uncontested auction.

 

I'm torn about whether I'd open 1♣ or underbid a bit and start showing shape immediately.

 

Playing MOSCITO with a 15+ strong club (often shaded), I'd probably chose to open 1♣

Playing a 16+ strong club I'd probably go with 1♦

[kenrexford]

We ARE talking strong club, right?

 

My opinion has long been that the usual minor-suit cores for most strong club systems, whether natural or canape, are not ideal. In the natural strong club structure, I strongly prefer:

 

1. 2♣ as three-suited

2. 2♦ as minors, intermediate

3. 2NT as minors, weakish

4. 1D as either minor but not both

 

This deal is a great ad for that core:

 

Opener: 2♦ (minors, intermediate)

Responder: 2♥ (artificial asking bid)

Opener: 3♥ (maximum with three hearts and hence stiff or void in spades)

Responder: 4♦ (demand bid -- you ask for Aces)

Opener: 4♠ (relay+1 = Exclusion with void in spades)

Responder: 5♣ (two)

Opener: 5NT (grand slam try, Kings not important)

Responder: 7♣ (yes, choice)

Opener: (whim)

 

I do feel somewhat ashamed that I did not get to 7♥ at MP with my first auction. Perhaps over 5NT Responder should bid 6♥ to suggest a Moysian? Or, maybe Responder should just bid 7♥, knowing that Opener has Kxx and a void in spades.

[mike777]

difficult hand, maybe:

 

 

1d=1h

2c=2s

3c?=3d

4s=5d

5h=5nt

6c=7d

 

 

2s=4sf, art and gf.

4s=exclusion

5d=2 and deny trump Q

5h=KH, grand try

6c=KC

[Zelandakh]

1. 2♣ as three-suited

2. 2♦ as minors, intermediate

3. 2NT as minors, weakish

4. 1D as either minor but not both

 

Why this and not the more popular version with 2C both minors intermediate and 2D or 2H 3-suited, Ken?

[Hilver]

[hv=pc=n&s=shkt2dakqt2ckt832&n=sqt2haqj3dj93caq4&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1d(2+%2C%2011-15)p1hp3cp3sp]266|200[/hv]

 

Truth is it went downhill from there and somehow we landed in 6♦. We won 12, I won't complain but I'd like to know:

 

Is this better opened 1♣ (16+ any hand)?

How does responder show his hand after 3♣?

How do I get to 7 this way?

 

In our system (also a Big Club) we would bid:

1♦ - 1♥

3♣ - 3♠

4♥ - 7♣ (or 7♦)

 

Explanation:

1♦ = 10-15 HCP, 2+-♦

1♥ = 6+ HCP, 4+♥

3♣ = 14-15 HCP, 5+♣ and 5+♦

3♠ = fourth suit

4♥ = 3-card ♥.

So South's shape is 0=3=5=5

Count points and end up in 7♣ or 7♦.

 

Jan

[whereagles]

Hanoi, what's 3S? If 4th suit I guess I bid 4H now.

[kenrexford]

Why this and not the more popular version with 2C both minors intermediate and 2D or 2H 3-suited, Ken?

 

Some friends of mine tried reversing these, and the results were not as good. There are reasons why, and I predicted that their experiment would fail for those reasons.

 

First, consider the three-suited call. The classic response structure to a Mini-Roman 2♦ is to bid 2NT to ask for the stiff, perhaps submarine-style. You end up, then, with a knowledge of the stiff at the three-level with no knowledge of the overall strength of the hand. You also lose 2NT as another meaning.

 

Constrast this with a 2♣ opening as three-suited and a 2♦ asking bid. Opener can now bid:

 

2♥ = minimum with four hearts, unknown stiff.

2♠ = minimum precisely 4-1-4-4, 4-0-5-4, or 4-0-4-5

2NT...3♥ = maximumm, submoarine the stiff (bid one below the stiff)

 

After 2♥, Responder can bid naturally if discouraged or can ask for the stiff with a second asking bid.

 

This also preserves 2♣-P-2NT for other meanings (such as balanced, or both minors).

 

Thus, that one little step is extremely beneficial. But, does this then hurt minors sequences?

 

Not really. When Opener has diamonds and clubs, the "standard sequence" will often be 1♦...2♣ with a diamond "courtesy correct." With diamonds and clubs, the opponents likely have a major and might compete us to the three-level anyway. Plus, the club suit is the only suit that MUST be played at the three-level in a "Law of Total Tricks" application if each side has an 8-card fit. Hence, "forcing the three-level" to show club preference is not really, in practice, a loss. Sure -- the 2♥ asking bid after the 2♦ opening is somewhat costly, in taking away the ability to bid a natural 2♥. But, if 2♣ shows the minors, you lose 2♥ as well, or you lose the ability to preference diamonds at the two-level (if 2♦ is the asking bid), which is really bad, IMO. This is especially bad if one assumes that "diamond purity as 5-card" is usual (rare exceptions), which makes sense because 1♦...2♣ with 4♦/5♣ as an exception is more workable than 1♦...2♦ with 5♦/4♣, IMO.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=shkt2dakqt2ckt832&n=sqt2haqj3dj93caq4&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1d(2+%2C%2011-15)p1hp3cp3sp]266|200[/hv]

 

T

How do I get to 7 .....snip ?

Playing 2/1 ( since I am Big Club/relay-challenged ):

 

1D - 1H

3C ( GF ) - 3D

3H - 4C ( Cl Ctrl, denying Sp Ctrl )

4D ( Minorwood RKC for Diam ) - 4NT ( 2 - dQ ) no problem with Sp-void since no Sp Ctrl for Responder

6C ( cQ-ask since by-passed 5H which would be kickback for Kings ) - 6NT ( cQ )

7D ( committed to the grand with the 6NT reply )

[Zelandakh]

Why not use 5C as your king ask Don? It is not so important here but would allow you to use 5NT as the club SSA instead of 6C.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Why not use 5C as your king ask Don? It is not so important here but would allow you to use 5NT as the club SSA instead of 6C.

Duh.....You are right....since trump Q question has been answered already.

[olien]

1♦-1♥// 2♣-2♠

 

This is how we would start even though we play precision.

 

Now, we play the following re-bids by opener:

2NT = 3=1=(5/4), does not promise a ♠ stopper

3♣ = 2=2=(5/4) w/o ♠ stopper (3♦ now asks longer suit)

3♦ = 5+/5+ minors (3♥ now asks shortness)

3♥ = 1=3=4=5

3♠ = 1=3=5=4

3NT = 0=3=5=5 min

4♣ = 0=3=5=5 max

 

After our 3♠/NT re-bid, partner and I play 4♣=forces 4♦ for mild slam try, 4♦=end, 4♥=RKC ♣, 4♠=RKC ♦, 4NT=RKC ♥. After a 4♣ bid (as here), we play 4♦=end, 4♥=RKC ♣, 4♠=RKC ♦, 4NT=RKC ♥.

 

This structure works because we don't re-bid 2♣ with 6/4 minors. The 2♣ re-bid, even though its an underbid, will make later bidding significantly easier. If it passes out at 2♣ its not the end of the world and we may be high enough, and if partner bids we can easily take another call. In the words of Al Roth "if I get past this round, I'll know what to do."

[Free]

What would you bid over 3S with 1255?

4♣ or 4♦, responder can now scramble with 4♥ if he has a 5 card suit. He doesn't promise a 5 card suit at the moment, so bidding 4♥ on ♥Hx could be very wrong imo.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Why not use 5C as your king ask Don? It is not so important here but would allow you to use 5NT as the club SSA instead of 6C.

The truth is, Responder should bid the Grand after the ♣Q-ask ( my post #13 )-- no matter what is used to "ask".

Why? Because he can count to 13 tricks:

-- Opener has confirmed all of the key cards including the trump Q.... so Responder's ♦J is golden.

-- Responder assumes partner has the ♠Ace because of all key cards confirmed.

-- Responder HAS the ♣Q

-- Responder can count four ♥ tricks because Opener had shown the K .

 

So.... Responder counts: 1s, 4h, 3c, and at least 5d

 

Although the reasoning was slightly flawed ( no Sp Ace, but a void ), the Grand then hinges on something favorable happening in Clubs.

[Fluffy]

1♦-1♥! (1♦ cos short spades means you want to show shape quick)- 1♥ = nat or strong relay

3♣-3♥! 3♥ = strong relay, short asking

3NT!-4♦! 3NT= short spades, 4♦= keycard blackwood for diamonds

4♥!-4♠! 4♥ = spade void, 4♠ = rekeycard blackwood

5♥!-5♠! 5♥ = 2 with queen, 5♠ = ♣K asking

6♣!-...... 6♣ = ♣K but not ♣Q

 

 

doh I don´t have the space to show ♥K :(, need a couple extra steps. For having a maximum, partner must either have ♣J or ♥K or a 6th card in a minor. In one case grand is almost (barring 5-0 breaks) 50%, on the other it needs clubs breaking or a squeeze, maybe worth being played, maybe not

 

 

EDIT I stupidly assumed north would want to play in diamonds, but that's not right, he will prefer clubs.

 

So the bidding would be:

 

 

1♦-1♥

3♣-3♥

3NT-4♣ (keycard blackwood in clubs)

4♦-4♥ (void-keycard)

5♣-5♦ (2 without the queen, ♦K?)

5NT-...... (♦K+ ♦Q, end of story, reaching same spot as before)

 

 

BTW: if I had opened 1♣ with the 5-5, I would have a lot of problems, in fact much more than now. Spade void is the worst possible void for my system because that's the most expensive to show when partner has 3433. Would only reach 6 because partner is showing 16+ balanced I Can´t stop below slam.

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, are you sure you have your relays optimised? Over a 1D opening I really think you should be able to show the 5-5 minors at 2S at the highest. It looks like you are using 3C for this which immediately puts you 2 steps higher, and 3H as the next relay makes it +3 steps. Also, after 3NT in your auction I suggest it might be nice to use 4C as a relay rather than RKCB for clubs. It seems clear from the North seat that relays are going to be more efficient than RKCB on this hand so having that option to proceed would be advantageous.

[Cascade]

What did 3♠ show?

 

I think you have an advantage with the limited opening that you know opener is around 14-15 immediately with the jump. It seems to me that it would be better to immediately agree one of partner's minors unless there is some ambiguity about length.

 

It still probably gets awkward as ideally we need the hand with the key queens in the side suit to be asking (in control) and for that player to know about the spade void.

 

I don't think we would do any better after a standard fourth suit auction starting 1♦ 1♥; 2♣ 2♠ ...

 

I did wonder about a possible 4♠ response to show extra values and a void in the fourth suit. On this hand responder would be well placed virtually knowing every card in opener's hand. However with a different responding hand there could be too much ambiguity about opener's suit lengths 0355; 0265; 0364 etc

[Fluffy]

Fluffy, are you sure you have your relays optimised? Over a 1D opening I really think you should be able to show the 5-5 minors at 2S at the highest. It looks like you are using 3C for this which immediately puts you 2 steps higher, and 3H as the next relay makes it +3 steps. Also, after 3NT in your auction I suggest it might be nice to use 4C as a relay rather than RKCB for clubs. It seems clear from the North seat that relays are going to be more efficient than RKCB on this hand so having that option to proceed would be advantageous.

We have a many bids that describe hands with 4 hearts, because 1♥ is normally natural, 1♥ normally is one of 3 types: weak nat, GF nat, or very very strong.

We could perhaps use 2♠ instead of 3♣ for this type, right now 2♠ is used for 3 suiters with 4♥&4♦ wich doesn't come up very frequently anyway. We moved to 3 suiters because I though it was a waste to have 2♠ for specifically 5♣-4♦ max and 2NT 5♦-4♣ max. Now 2NT is 6♦-3♥.

 

So 3♣ is 5+-5+ max.

 

 

What is you response scheme?

 

 

About the blackwood for clubs, its just our next relay*. We play something completelly different from others**, once we know all distribution, instead of just bidding a relay for starting asking keycards, we use 4 steps to set up trumps. 4♣ is keycard in clubs, not because 4♣ is clubs, but because it is the first step now, and ♣s are the longest opener's suit (lowest from equal). Setting trumps is a very different approach from the usual methods that ask about everything. We set up trumps, and then we force the asker to do something else than just bid next relay, he has a variety of asking bids with different steps. This is possile because we know what the fit is, and any bid that is the fit is a stop, others are different questions.

 

 

*: normally we ask about all distribution, then for keycards, but on some specific cases we end up simply asking for shortness, and remain unsure of total lenght, treating 7321 the same as 7231 or 8221 for example. Here 0256 would be the same as 0355 or 0265. But this is not typical.

 

**: this is something I totally invented myself, and that nobody is using right now that I know of, I am very fond of it and not gonna change it anytime soon.

[Fluffy]

Me and partner are thinking about switching 2♠ and 3♣. I think we will probably do. Thank you Mark.

[Zelandakh]

You are welcome! I am just pleased you did not take offence. My responses to 1D are currently:-

 

1D = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbalanced

==

1H = invitational or better relay (see below)

1S = natural, weak, non-forcing

1N = 4+ hearts, weak, non-forcing (denies 4 spades)

2C = natural, weak, non-forcing (5+ clubs, denies 4 card major)

2D = natural, weak, non-forcing

2M = weak jump shift (up to ~7 hcp)

2N = mixed raise

3C = weak jump shift (up to ~7 hcp)

3D = weak raise

 

The weak hands bid 4 card suits up the line, possible canape. I found in testing that this approach is better than bidding the longest suit first.

 

Over 1H

=======

1S = min, not 4 spades unless 4441 or 4450

... - 1N = GF relay (then responses as over 1H)

... - others = natural and invitational

1N = 4 spades, 0-3 hearts (2C = GF relay (see below); others = natural and invitational)

2C = max, 4+ clubs, 0-3 spades, GF

... - 2D = relay

... - ... - 2H = 5+ diamonds, 4 clubs

... - ... - 2S = 5+ diamonds, 5+ clubs

... - ... - 2N = 4 diamonds, 5+ clubs

... - ... - 3C = 1444

... - ... - 3D = 1454

2D = max, 6+ diamonds, no other 4 card suit, GF

2H = max, 5+ diamonds, 4 hearts, not 3-suited, GF

2S = max, 4441, GF

2N = max, 4450, GF

 

I have been working on this structure a little lately as it originally had 6D5H hands allowed and I have removed them. I may also switch the 2C and 2H responses sometime to make all the "4 hearts, not 4 spades" hands go through 2C. The disadvantage of this is pushing the 4450 hand to 3D but it is probably worth it.

 

Finally,

1D - 1H; 1N - 2C

================

2D = min, 4 spades (2H relay (then responses as over 2C)

2H = 5+ spades

2S = max, 6+ diamonds, 4 spades

2N = max, 5 diamonds, 4 spades, not 3-suited

3C = max, 4144

3D = max, 4154

 

I have kept the 6D5S hand option in here because if I can outbid them in spades next time around (and if opening 1D you should be prepared to) and because I just do not have anything better to use this step for without messing up the symmetry (which would most likely lead to memory failures). You can at least trace some of the sequence above from this.

 

With your method of 1H natural or GF you could adopt a similar approach by using the first step as a relay with the big hand and others as natural. Of course this is a little awkward when the next bid is 2NT, as it would be over 2S. Probably a better answer would be to use 2C as most hands with clubs and only make the jumps with heart support, thus catering to both hand types. Something like

 

1D - 1H = nat or GF relay

=======

1S/1N/2C/2D/2H = natural

2S = max, 4 hearts, 6+ diamonds

2N = max, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds

3C = max, 0-1 clubs

3D = max, 1454 (3H to play, 3S relay)

3H = max, 0454

 

might work, depending upon exactly what hands you keep in your 1D opening. Combining the two ideas ought to make for an efficient system, in theory anyway :P .