mich-b Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 We would like to experiment with a mini NT opening , perhaps 10-12.I would be happy to hear thoughts , especially from those who have played it, about the following issues: 1. Which range should we use? 10-12? 10-13? 9-11? anything else?2. Which positions and vulnerabilities would you suggest to use it? (I saw a WC pair use them only as dealer favorable).3. Should we be more or less strict about possible shapes compared to a 15-17 NT? (should we open a mini with 5 card majors, 6 card minors, 5422, singleton ♠ honors?4. What is the recommended way to deal with the stronger NT ranges? rebid 1NT with 13-16, and 2NT with 17-19? Aren't those ranges too wide?5. Do you think it is an overall winner (assuming you use it only in some positions and vulnerabilities as you prefer)? Do you think it works well in IMPS against good opps and/or in MP against mediocre opps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 1. That really depends on the rest of your system (for various responses), especially your NT ladder2. I've played 10-12 at all vulnerabilities in 1st, 2nd and 3rd seat. 12-14 in 4th seat. It worked ok, but obviously we ran into a telephone number a few times. If you want safety, I'd suggest only 1st & 2nd seat NV. But again, it depends on your NT ladder if you can cope with it.3. When I played mini NT, I did it in a strong ♣ context with light openers. So there was no need to be flexible on shape. With a 5 card M we opened 1M, 6 card minors were opened 1♦. 4441 and some 5422's are definitely a possibility though.4. That's what the NT ladder is all about. A 4-point 1NT range is wide, but in my experience it's acceptable. A 3-point 2NT range is a lot harder. When I played mini, we opened 1NT 10-12, 1♦ (nebulous) followed by 1NT was 13-15, and 16+ was handled with 1♣ (1♣-1♦-1NT with 16-18, 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT with 19-21, 2NT rebids after these 2 auctions were stronger: 22-23 and 24+ GF).5. It puts pressure on opps when you open 1NT, but it can put pressure on you if you don't open 1NT. Since pretty much everyone plays strong doubles, you will get a big number now and then. I don't think it's a winner (nor a loser) against good opposition, against weak opps it definitely is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 We would like to experiment with a mini NT opening , perhaps 10-12.I would be happy to hear thoughts , especially from those who have played it, about the following issues: 1. Which range should we use? 10-12? 10-13? 9-11? anything else?2. Which positions and vulnerabilities would you suggest to use it? (I saw a WC pair use them only as dealer favorable).3. Should we be more or less strict about possible shapes compared to a 15-17 NT? (should we open a mini with 5 card majors, 6 card minors, 5422, singleton ♠ honors?4. What is the recommended way to deal with the stronger NT ranges? rebid 1NT with 13-16, and 2NT with 17-19? Aren't those ranges too wide?5. Do you think it is an overall winner (assuming you use it only in some positions and vulnerabilities as you prefer)? Do you think it works well in IMPS against good opps and/or in MP against mediocre opps? You should play mini-nt, it is fun! 1. Depending on where you play (ACBL for instance), opening on less than 10 may cause regulatory problems. 10-12 is quite workable, and in 3rd position 10-13 or 10-14 works well too.2. I suggest you should use it in all seats except 4th at least when white. You could use it when red in the first 3 seats as well, or when red only in 3rd seat (preemption) or whatever else.3. You should be the same or less strict than 15-17 nt, depending on how strict you are now. I'd say yes to everything you asked (except maybe singleton ♠ honors depending on your regulations).4. I think having a 1nt rebid of 13-15 is more workable than 13-16. If you play strong club then your stronger rebids can go in the 1♣ opener. If you don't play strong club you can still decide to partition your minor openers so with one range you always open 1♦ and rebid 1nt and with the other range you open 1♣ and rebid 1nt, but otherwise the minor openers are standard (so both "could be as few as 2"). If you did the partitioning you might want to play 1♣ is, say, 13-15 and 1♦ is 16-18. If you want to catch up with the field you could choose to do 1♣ is 13-14 and 1♦ is 15-17, assuming you play somewhere that 15-17 is most common.5. I think it is an overall winner against most players. Better players will pay more attention to the negative inferences that when you pass you have less than 10 points, and will declare and defend better because of that. Better players will also pass and go quietly rather than compete ridiculously and get in to trouble. Better players will also play penalty doubles and sit for the doubles rather than constantly taking them out. At most levels I've played them I think we get 4 to 5 huge gifts for every disaster and win lots of A+ type boards. Other recommendation is to make sure you know your escape systems forwards and backwards, make sure you know your constructive 1nt sequence (and 1nt rebid sequences) frontwards and backwards, and make sure you have an agreed upon way to penalize the opponents when they come in over your 1nt as they'll often be guessing to compete and guess wrong (especially mediocre players who will feel you are stealing from them every time you open 1nt). The other auctions to discuss are when you hold the balanced hands stronger than 1nt and open 1m and the opponents compete how do you show your hand? Do you still play things like support doubles, or does a double in a support like position show a strong balanced hand (and if so, how strong if it could be 13-19)? Does the 2nt rebid in competition show the strong balanced hand and does it promise a stopper in their suit? etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wclass___ Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 1. I found 8-11 to be best, because it is exactly below opening for most.2. NV 1st/2nd.3. Everything you mentioned is fine.4. Nebulous 1♦ and strong 1♣.5. Yes, especially long teammatches to put pressure on opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 1st fav is obviously when it rates to gain most. IMO it will gain more 1st at love all than 2nd at fav. From a theoretical point of view, playing standard methods, I would only want to play it 1st fav, as I think the impact it has on your other balanced hands is considerable. From a practical point of view, I wouldn't want to have to create and remember a set of agreements purely for when we are 1st fav. In other words, I would only consider playing a mini NT if playing strong club or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 A possible NT ladder in a 2/1 GF or Standard American context: 10-12: 1NT13-16: 1x-1y-1NT, with two way checkback17-18: 1x-1y-2NT19-20: 2NT21-22: 2♦ (could also be a GF with diamonds) followed by 2NT23-24: 2♣ followed by 2NT25-26: 2♣ followed by Kokish relay27-28: 2♦ followed by 3NT29-30: 2♣ followed by 3NT I'd play the 3NT bids as forcing to 4NT, and use the same structure over 3NT as over 2NT (Romex Stayman, Jacoby Transfers). If you're trying it out, you might want to use it in all seats except fourth at all vuls, to give you more opportunities to practice, but ordinarily I'd stick to not-vul at MPs, favorable at IMPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Would it not be easier to play both minor openings nebulous? As in 10-12: 1NT13-15: 1C, then 1NT16-18: 1D, then minNT19-20: 1C, then 2NT21-22: 2NT23+: 2C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Easier? Maybe. Better? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Mini notrump fits in well with strong ♣ and hybrid ♣ systems. We've also enjoyed playing NV, seats 1 & 2:1♣ = 16-18 flat or shapely 4+ ♣.1♦ = 13-15 flat or 4+ ♦.1♥ = Nat 5+ ♥.1♠ = Nat 5+ ♠.1N = 10-12 flat.2♣ = Art Strong (incl flat 23+).2♦ = Multi 19-20 flat or weak major two.2♥ = 9-13 4 ♥ & longer minor.2♠ = 9-13 4 ♠ & longer minor.2N = 21-22 flat.Otherwise 1N = 15-17 flat... The lightly less adventurous may try as above but ...2♣ = Benjamin 19-20 flat or 8-9 playing tricks in a suit.2♦ = Benjamin 23+ flat or Art GF.2♥ = Weak two.2♠ = Weak two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flameous Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 In my last partnership I played mini NT (10-12) 1-3 seats NV. We used 1C for 13-15/18-19 bal and 1D for 16-17/20-22 bal. We used to open it with almost everything in range, to gain more pre-emption and to define our other openings as stronger. Against weaker opposition it's a huge winner and I'd play it in MP even in a good field as I think you have an edge in the partscore battle after opening 1NT. At IMPs against good players, I still trust it has gains but not so much anymore. In current partnership I play 1NT 10-13 all zones/seats. Of course vul/4th seat it means actually something like 12-13 or a really good 11. We are much more strict about shape, though 5 card majors are totally systematic. We play 1C as 14-19 bal or nat withouth Ds with transfer walsh to easily break the ranges. If you ask me, I think it's the best way to play a natural system. (can give you more notes on that, if interested) Going weaker is not imo possible in natural context, you need strong C/D/pass opening to get your ladder somehow sensible. Also I'm not so sure it's good policy to go even weaker, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 1nt 11-131nt rebid 14-162nt rebid 17-182nt opener 19-21 imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you're prepared to do the work on a system of responses 10-14 is playable giving no issues for the rest of your system, we actually played 10-15 1/2 14-19 3/4 with a fair degree of success for a while (it won us a couple of matches against stronger opposition and caused a good player to basically say it was impossible to defend after a 1N-P-P-P at pairs and he had no clue whether he was trying to beat this or prevent the second overtrick). What we did was to play the red suits as 4+ card invitational or better transfers with step responses (3 steps without a fit, then 3 with) and 2♣ as the bucket bid for lots of hand types. Why I'd recommend 10-14 is because while the top part of the range is GF opposite the transfer, the middle part isn't and is awkward to handle, so you want to make it quite small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I don't like wide-ranging 1NT rebids, Wank's and Zealand's structures look reasonable to me. If I was playing a nebulous minor that included a 13-15 NT I would open it quite soundly on unbalanced hands [no 11-counts] as partner will play me for 13-15 in competition. If I had a 19-20 2NT rebid, I'd be tempted to play a 2NT opening as 21-23 and 2C:2D, 2N as 24+GF so I don't have to bother with Kokish or the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poky Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 You should never open mini 1NT with singletons because natural sequences 1NT-2M and 1NT-3m are most powerful. I used to play 9-12 but this always creates a swing when you open with 12. Therefore I would suggest this ranges:9-11 > open 1NT12-14 > open 1!C, rebid 1NT15-17 > open 1!D18+ > open 1!C, rebid strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Not for the faint of heart... 8-9 1NT 10-12 1♦...1NT13-15 pass(!)16+ strong club, or16-17 1♣...1NT18-19 1m...2NT20-21 2NTetc In 3/4, 8-9 1♦, partner will bid 1NT with 13-1510-17 1NT, partner will invite with 13-14 and bid game with 14-15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I've been playing a 9-11 1NT in 1st/2nd NV for like 5 years now and I'm quite happy with the results. You do need however some fine-tuning in the follow-ups, especially if stuff gets competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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