emalka Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 [handviewer=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=pn|emalka,~~M59537,~~M59535,~~M59536|st||md|2S6QKHKD8JQKC6TJQA%2CS457TJH29TJQD24C3%2CS389AH5D37AC2459K%2C|rh||ah|Board%208|sv|o|mb|p|mb|p|mb|p|mb|1C|an|Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points|mb|p|mb|1S|an|One%20over%20one%20--%204%2B%20S%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%206-12%20total%20points%20|mb|p|mb|2D|an|Opener%20reverse%20--%205%2B%20C%3B%204%2B%20D%3B%203-%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2018-22%20total%20points|mb|p|mb|2S|an|Rebid%20suit%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%206-12%20total%20points%20|mb|p|mb|4S|an|5%2B%20C%3B%204%2B%20D%3B%203%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2019-22%20total%20points|mb|p|mb|5D|an|Cue%20bid%20--%201%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%207-%208421%20HCP%20in%20C%3B%208%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20D%3B%2012%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20|mb|p|mb|5H|an|Cue%20bid%20--%205%2B%20C%3B%204%2B%20D%3B%203%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%208%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%2022%20total%20points%3B%20forcing|mb|p|mb|6S|an|1%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%207-%208421%20HCP%20in%20C%3B%208%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20D%3B%2012%20total%20points%20|mb|p|mb|p|mb|p|pc|HA|pc|HK|pc|H2|pc|H5|pc|DT|pc|D8|pc|D4|pc|DA|pc|S3|pc|S2|pc|SK|pc|S7|pc|SQ|pc|S4|pc|S8|pc|H3|pc|C6|pc|C3|pc|C9|pc|C7|pc|D3|pc|D5|pc|DK|pc|D2|pc|CQ|pc|S5|pc|C4|pc|C8|pc|SJ|pc|SA|pc|H8|pc|S6|pc|D7|pc|D9|pc|DQ|pc|ST|pc|HQ|pc|S9|pc|H6|pc|CT|pc|C5|pc|H7|pc|CJ|pc|HJ|pc|CA|pc|H9|pc|CK|pc|D6|pc|DJ|pc|HT|pc|C2|pc|H4|]400|300[/handviewer] All Souths who opened 1C got to 6S and the rest who opened 2C or 2NT got to 6C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I think you'd probably have the same problem playing with a human partner. How do you think the auction should go after a 2♣ opening to get to 6♠? This is why strong club systems were invented, they allow more room to describe your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 This is why strong club systems were invented, they allow more room to describe your hand.Since GIB doesn't play a strong club system, that comment is not at all helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 How do you think the auction should go after a 2♣ opening to get to 6♠?This is clearly not what she wants. She wants to get to the good 6♣ contract after opening 1♣, not the bad 6♠ contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Since GIB doesn't play a strong club system, that comment is not at all helpful.I was pointing out that this is a known problem with 2/1, and the solution humans came up with was to play a totally different system, not to tweak 2/1. GIB's system does allow it to bid a 4-card major after 2♣-2♦-3♣, but the rule for showing good support for opener's suit takes precedence. Do you think we should switch that around? If North bid 3♠, and South doesn't have spade support, will that make it harder to find the club slam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 What would it show if North bid 3♣ over 2♦? South would then pattern out, but North should know to place the contract in the 10-card fit instead of the 7-card fit. Not sure of the specifics, but North shouldn't hide the fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloa513 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Can't North bid 2♥ as game force and then over 2♠ bid 3 ♣ or 4 ♣ to set trumps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emalka Posted November 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I was pointing out that this is a known problem with 2/1, and the solution humans came up with was to play a totally different system, not to tweak 2/1. GIB's system does allow it to bid a 4-card major after 2♣-2♦-3♣, but the rule for showing good support for opener's suit takes precedence. Do you think we should switch that around? If North bid 3♠, and South doesn't have spade support, will that make it harder to find the club slam?I am talking about finding 6♣ after 1♣ opening.The problem here is that after 1♣-1♠-2♦ GIB rebids 2♠ which promises 5+ spades as it is said in the explanation.GIB should support clubs after 2♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgi Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I am talking about finding 6♣ after 1♣ opening.The problem here is that after 1♣-1♠-2♦ GIB rebids 2♠ which promises 5+ spades as it is said in the explanation.GIB should support clubs after 2♦. Let say we have three situations. Assuming 2♦ is matching its strength and you should attitude toward that.GIB has minimum hand.GIB has invitational hand.GIB has hand to make forcing to game. It doesn't seem so certain 3♣ is a strong hand. What should GIB do with weakish hand and 4+♠ and 3/4♣? Something like : ♠AJxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx 1♣ - 1♠2♦ - Opener reverse -- 5+ C; 4+ D; 3- S; 21- HCP; 18-22 total points - And now? sometimes you don't have the perfect hand to fit in your call. That's not always wrong to deviate around a bit. You can't bid 2NT as stronger hand and as you have nothing in ♥, and you don't have 5+♠ to promise, no 3♦ option either. When you are in forcing, but not to game, you should have option to stop safely. So in this auction, where 2♦ is not still GF ( but you have to make appropriate attitude toward), 3♣ looks like negative choice, then to support and forcing up.With the particular hand above ( we have 11HCP and super fit at least in one of the minors ), 3♣/2NT doesn't look right, more likely initially 2♥(which call may need a tweak) then fit in ♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 lol, I didn't even notice that North rebid his 4-card suit in the OP. GIB's system over reverses is not very sophisticated. It doesn't play 4th Suit Forcing or any Lebensohl-like convention, so it can't distinguish good and bad raises of opener's suit. 3♣ shows a minimum preference, and the North hand is too strong for this. 4♣ is a possible bid (it shows 7+ total points), but we try to avoid bypassing 3NT to bid a minor. Since it has enough points for game, but no other acceptable bid, the book bid is 3NT, despite not having a heart stopper. But simulations convince it otherwise, so it tries 2♠, presumably because this is forcing; opener can bid NT if he has a heart stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasetb Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 lol, I didn't even notice that North rebid his 4-card suit in the OP. GIB's system over reverses is not very sophisticated. It doesn't play 4th Suit Forcing or any Lebensohl-like convention, so it can't distinguish good and bad raises of opener's suit. 3♣ shows a minimum preference, and the North hand is too strong for this. 4♣ is a possible bid (it shows 7+ total points), but we try to avoid bypassing 3NT to bid a minor. Since it has enough points for game, but no other acceptable bid, the book bid is 3NT, despite not having a heart stopper. But simulations convince it otherwise, so it tries 2♠, presumably because this is forcing; opener can bid NT if he has a heart stopper.That's not the only think you didn't notice. Regardless of playing lebensohl or Ingberman or just 'natural' over reverses, North has a clear bid in my book - 4♥! GIB has 11 prime points, 5 controls (6 counting the singleton), and 5-card support when partner has shown at least 16/17, and 5♣-4♦. So let's show the support via a splinter. If GIB presumes that 4♥ is natural, then that explains a lot. I will say though that I agree on the Precision comment you made earlier, though that really has no bearing on the bidding sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yes, 4♥ would be natural. For some reason, there's a single rule that covers 2-4♥. The 3 level make sense, since it has to include 1♦ 1♠ 2♥ 3♣; I guess the 4 level was thrown in because there was no other meaning for the bid. If 4♥ were a splinter, wouldn't it be in support of diamonds, since that's the last bid suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 What would it show if North bid 3♣ over 2♦? It doesn't seem so certain 3♣ is a strong hand. I guess I didn't ask the question correctly. If the auction goes 1♣-1♠-2♦-3♣, what description would GIB provide for the 3♣ bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgi Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I guess I didn't ask the question correctly. If the auction goes 1♣-1♠-2♦-3♣, what description would GIB provide for the 3♣ bid? 1♣ - 1♥/♠2♦ - 3♣ - Raise -- 3+ ♣; 4+ ♥/♠; 6-9 total points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Can't North bid 2♥ as game force and then over 2♠ bid 3 ♣ or 4 ♣ to set trumps?Hopefully this will be the final answer :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Hopefully this will be the final answer :)Only if the answer you're looking for is that we should change GIB's sytem to play FSF in this sequence. I play it with my human partners, so I certainly think it's reasonable. We just have to be careful whenever we think about changing the system, for the sake of users who aren't familiar with all the gadgets. I think GIB's system is deliberately kept relatively simple to avoid confusing novices and intermediates -- that's why you don't see conventions that many advanced players play, like Drury and Puppet Stayman. It's a compromise between effectiveness and complexity (just as when making agreements with human partners). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxhong Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 For now, I think a good fix is to set 1C 1S 2D 4C as a good hand with C support which has some slam interest. Also, 4D shows a good hand with D support. a typical range should be 11+, not some random 7+ total points. This is a very simple fix. Also, now the 1C 1S 2D 3C isn't very playable. 3C as I remember shows 6+. IMO, it should show 6-7 and is passable. With better hands, you either bid 4C to show slam interest, bid 5C to play there, bid 3NT when you think you have a reasonable chance to make it, or bid the 4th suit when you don't have a stopper. Also, 2H to be natural doesn't make much sense here because opener has denied 4 hearts. It can be useful only with 5-5 majors, still, that's rare and you can always bid 2H then later 3H to show that shape. There are indeed many such kind of bad designs in the system. A simple system doesn't mean it has to be bad. Just like the well known case of 1H 1S 3H, it really can't show 16+. It should be something like 16-18, with 19+, a simple system would just bid 4H or 3NT, depending on the H length and quality. Only if the answer you're looking for is that we should change GIB's sytem to play FSF in this sequence. I play it with my human partners, so I certainly think it's reasonable. We just have to be careful whenever we think about changing the system, for the sake of users who aren't familiar with all the gadgets. I think GIB's system is deliberately kept relatively simple to avoid confusing novices and intermediates -- that's why you don't see conventions that many advanced players play, like Drury and Puppet Stayman. It's a compromise between effectiveness and complexity (just as when making agreements with human partners). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 FYI, this thread has prompted us to teach GIB the modern way to bid after a reverse. We'll be adding Lebensohl, FSF, jump raises as slam tries, etc. It's too soon to provide to a release time for this, it's a significant amount of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 FYI, this thread has prompted us to teach GIB the modern way to bid after a reverse. We'll be adding Lebensohl, FSF, jump raises as slam tries, etc. It's too soon to provide to a release time for this, it's a significant amount of work.Excellent! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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