Multi

[han]

Ax

Kx

AJxxx

xxxx

 

 

You are red against white, IMPs.

 

RHO opens 2D, multi.

 

You double, showing either a weak notrump or a very strong hand.

 

LHO bids 3H, pass or correct.

 

Partner doubles (takeout) and RHO passes (he has hearts).

 

What's your call?

[pooltuna]

your choices look to be pass or 3NT. I will grit my teeth and pass but only because I don't know what your doubling agreements are in this situation.

[helene_t]

4♦. I think partner would have bid 3NT on most hands with which we want to be in 3NT.

[Fluffy]

We don't want to be in 3NT it seems, 4♦ will be enough

[nige1]

You are red against white, IMPs. ♠ Ax ♥ Kx ♦ AJxxx ♣ xxxx

(2♦ = Multi) Double (3♥ = P/C) Double = T/O;

(Pass) ??

IMO, 3N = 10, 4♦ = 8, Pass = 5. Judging by the auction, we've lots of minor cards between us. 3N may still be playable/ It's less likley to be doubled than a minor game -- partner is unlikely to pass 4♦.

[aguahombre]

West, knowing your methods, could be having a lot of fun at this vul with a non-heart 3-suiter.

[gnasher]

3NT. I seem to have a heart stop, and rather more offensive strength than I might have had.

[mikeh]

My instinct is to bid 4♦ on the basis that partner simply doesn't rate to hold enough for us to take 9 tricks, but I am trying to overcome my 'glass half empty' philosophy. We could easily be cold for 3N and we ain't getting there any other way. Moreover, even if 3N fails, it's not as if we are always going to make (or stop in) 4♦.

 

So 3N it is.

 

Hamman used to say that it was an error for his partners to bid in the hope that he held the magic cards....but bidding 4♦ is a similar error in reverse....it is bidding on the basis that partner has magically bad cards. There is no need to be that pessimistic.

[Free]

3NT, P/C at 3-level at this vulnerability can even be on a singleton.

[whereagles]

4D. Pard might be streching to dbl 3H and I really need him to have considerable extras to make 3NT.

[gwnn]

I suspect the glass is 60% empty this time so I will try 4♦.

[MrAce]

3NT

[han]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Partner had

 

QJ10x

Qx

KQxx

AJx

 

If you are in 3NT, you will probably take the losing spade finesse at some point, so you take -200 and the reputation of an optimist.

 

If you pass you score +100 and obtain the reputation of a madman.

 

If you bid 4D you will there for +130 and the reputation of a coward.

 

It shouldn't surprise anybody that I ended up as a madman.

[han]

P/C at 3-level at this vulnerability can even be on a singleton.

 

If the opponents can be in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit, then why aren't we passing?

 

I must admit I haven't seen the singleton raise yet, but people frequently bid 3H with a doubleton heart. People never seem to bid 3H with 4-4 in the majors at these colors.

[gnasher]

If the opponents can be in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit, then why aren't we passing?

 

I must admit I haven't seen the singleton raise yet, but people frequently bid 3H with a doubleton heart. People never seem to bid 3H with 4-4 in the majors at these colors.

Partner made a takeout double of hearts. I have only two hearts. How can the opponents be in a 6-1 fit?

[han]

Partner made a takeout double of hearts. I have only two hearts. How can the opponents be in a 6-1 fit?

 

I find the thought of raising to 3H on a singleton stranger than doubling with 4 hearts. Partner is under pressure.

[cherdano]

One argument in favor of 4♦ that hasn't been said yet is that it shows our hand really well - how else could a weak NT-ish hand look like that takes this double out to the 4-level? So I think partner will typically get the decision whether to pass or move over 4♦ right.

[MrAce]

I still prefer 3NT and go down when a finesse fails at IMPS, rather than making deep anaylsis and try to play short of game when our side has 27 hcp combined holding K in 1 hand Q in the other of opponent suit.

[han]

Sorry I don't think that's a relevant argument. You don't know your partner has 15 HCP when you have to decide whether to pass or to bid 3NT.

 

You do know that your partner is very likely to have a doubleton heart, and that the opponents will lead hearts. So in order to make 3NT, you probably need 9 tricks from the top (including your heart king). How likely is it that you can take those? Well, your AJxxx of diamonds is of course good, although if you have to finesse into LHO (the non-preemptor) it is odds against. I'd say you won't make 3NT more often than 1 in 4.

 

How will you do in 4D? Even though there isn't a guaranteed diamond fit, you'll probably make that more often, maybe 50-60% of the time? I'm just guessing here, I think it is very hard to estimate these things. You'll make it more often than 3NT, but the upside is of course smaller than you make it?

 

What if you pass? I think you'll go plus most often, especially at these colors, so perhaps pass should be the coward's choice, the glass half empty? Perhaps not, because when you go minus it is a big minus.

 

I don't know what's right here. Most top players that I've asked bid 3NT but think pass is reasonable. They don't even mention 4D.

[Fluffy]

top players think of 3NT and pass, I only think of 4♦ and think 3NT is insanelly agressive, but don't even consider passing as an option.

 

I know I am not very agressive passing this things, but I really think passing 3♥ when opponents have 3-6 fit that could be 4-6 and that splits good is nearly ridicoulous, ♥K protects the lead in 3NT and 4♦, but in 3♥ it could easilly be offside.

[Free]

If the opponents can be in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit, then why aren't we passing?

 

I must admit I haven't seen the singleton raise yet, but people frequently bid 3H with a doubleton heart. People never seem to bid 3H with 4-4 in the majors at these colors.

Opps can be in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit, however, they can also be in a 6-3 or 6-4 fit. We just don't know.

 

My reasoning for not passing is:

- If they are bidding a 6-3 or better fit, then 3NT is pretty much the only game that has a chance while passing is quite dangerous imo.

- If they are bidding a short fit, then 3NT will have better chances than when they have 9+♥ because partner will probably have half a stopper and communication in the ♥ suit can be stopped.

[MrAce]

Sorry I don't think that's a relevant argument. You don't know your partner has 15 HCP when you have to decide whether to pass or to bid 3NT.

 

 

Of course i dunno that pd had 15 hcp, and he didnt. He had 13 hcp that i can use and thats not way more than i expected tbh. Considering the explenation of DBL ( weak NT or ..) so i expect pd to have at least the values to invite a weak NT. I didnt start with 2 NT, i did not overcall a suit and pd could pass if he has anything less than 11 hcp imo, because i will DBL again with 18+ or bid suit with 17+ etc etc.

 

And i never said we will make this 3NT, i know very well that we maybe going down if we are not lucky. But then again, if our hand is not that good they can make 3♥ doubled also. But as u said the consequences of 3♥ doubled is very heavy that i would never take this risk at IMP. It can very well be a double game bonus, they can make when we can make 3 NT also. 4♦... as you aso said i dont even know if we have a ♦ fit, maybe pd has long ♣ 3226 4225 or whatever, what is he supposed to do with those hands and 11+ hcp ?

 

Preempts are made for a reason, i am in a tuff seat after pd's DBL and i dont have too many options. Pd knows that one of the hands i can hold is this, a weak NT with or without a ♥ stopper. If people are bidding 4♦ with this and their pd is sitting on it with 15 hcp when we started DBL over multi, more power to them, i would bid 3 NT and go down.

[han]

Two people have mentioned that the opponents could easily have a 6-4 heart fit. I don't see it. LHO is extremely likely to have 4+ spades on this auction (partner won't often have 5 for his double, especially not with a singleton heart, and RHO won't have 4 spades for his multi preempt) and people don't bid 3H white against red with 4-4 in the majors. So, I think the chance that they have a 6-4 heart fit is very small.

 

The argument "I would never pass since they might make a doubled partscore" is also bad imo.

[Fluffy]

The argument "I would never pass since they might make a doubled partscore" is also bad imo.

My argument is, I have more chances to make 3NT than to put this contract 2 off (perhaps not, but close). In fact most times I score 300/500 I have 600 in 3NT so only when 3♥ is 1 down will pass outscore 3NT. That's a small tiny target IMO.

 

And 3NT is already a very poor choice IMO also, wich means pass is close to ridicoulous :)

 

Yo are right about the 4-6 fit, it is very unlikelly.

[JLOGIC]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Partner had

 

QJ10x

Qx

KQxx

AJx

 

If you are in 3NT, you will probably take the losing spade finesse at some point, so you take -200 and the reputation of an optimist.

 

If you pass you score +100 and obtain the reputation of a madman.

 

If you bid 4D you will there for +130 and the reputation of a coward.

 

It shouldn't surprise anybody that I ended up as a madman.

 

At first I was thinking partner would need to have great discipline to pass 4D with a 15 count and 4 diamonds, but I suppose it is automatic given that we probably have 2 small hearts.

 

I have noticed that I tend to bid 3N in this type of situation too much with only one stopper when we'll need 9 to make 3N, possibly because when you don't have 9 you go down multiple tricks which negates a lot of the "bid any 3N in sight vul." -200 and -300 can be costly. That said, if I didn't pass I think this is an excellent candidate for a hand to bid 3N with 1 heart stopper...we have a good 5 card suit and quick tricks, we could easily have 9. And partner can have heart help in this auction obv.

 

I think pass is extremely reasonable, you are very likely to go plus with your quick tricks, and if you have a game you might get 300 or 500. It kind of combines the upside of 3N (going plus a big number) with the upside of bidding 4D (in fact, I'd guess that passing is more likely to get you a plus than 4D). Of course it introduces a new downside...going minus a big number. I do not think it's going to be that common. Going +100 instead of -200 is very valuable.

 

Han, I wonder about your first double. I don't play against multi that often but I was talking to Zmudinski about some hand we had this week against them, and he said doubling with 2-2 in the majors and a minimum is a bad strategy. Being 2-2 in the majors makes you guys having a game less likely, as well as having a good partial. And partner under pressure is going to stretch if he has length in a major or two in order to try and make a game. It is also more likely LHO will be able to preempt with something and that partner will be under pressure and get you too high when your hand is this marginal. Something to think about, I thought it was interesting.