Sorry, we made a mess

[olegru]

Near to the end of 2 sessions matchpoint event with no hospitality breaks.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk542h862dakqcq76&w=s87hak9543d72ck85&n=saqjthqtd86543c42&e=s963hj7djt9cajt93&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp1n2hd2nppd3cppdppp]399|300|[/hv]

 

After 1NT from South, West (my partner) put a stop card, then took it back and placed 2♥ bid.

2 ♥ alerted, explained as ♥ and a minor.

The first double from North is a take out.

After partners performance it was more or less clear that he did not see 1NT from West and intended 2♥ as a natural ♥ preemptive but our actual agreement is Cappelletti.

I would like to pass 2♥, but pass suggested by UI. I decided that asking for partner second suit is a LA and bid 2NT. The problem was that I was busy thinking about etiquette and LA so I forgot that 2♥ was doubled and request for the second suit would be redouble, not 2NT. 2NT bid in this bidding was impossible, at least our partnership never discussed it.

Before double 3♣ North ask how Partner understand 2NT and why it was not alerted.

Partner explained that it was the impossible bid, he could guess that I forgot that request for the second suit would be redouble and he did not alert because we have no agreements for any artificial meaning of the 2NT bid.

South took the ♦Ace, and lead a small trump (!) on the second round. 11 tricks.

Any reasons for adjustment?

[lamford]

Near to the end of 2 sessions matchpoint event with no hospitality breaks.

Is that why you made a mess? :)

[olegru]

I guess so :)

[lamford]

On the ruling side, I can see no reason for an adjustment. :) Once West saw the 1NT bid (presumably after using the stop card) he could have still bid 2C, Cappelletti, if he chose. East has UI either way. I would pass anyway on the East hand, but 2NT is certainly not demonstrably suggested, and, if West's minors had been the other way around, it would have worked poorly. I guess North's final double was intended as takeout, but why did South not bid spades at one of his last three turns? Your partner should interpret 2NT as showing both minors, not a request for his minor, as he only knows the latter from the unexpected alert.

[aguahombre]

Your partner should interpret 2NT as showing both minors, not a request for his minor, as he only knows the latter from the unexpected alert.

I agree with your whole post; but, this part interests me. Maybe when the smoke clears here, or on a different thread, we should discuss whether partner should alert an impossible bid ---undiscussed on the given auction but nevertheless artificial ---and much easier for the alerting person to figure out than it would be for the opponents.

 

Of course, the normal restrictions on use of UI would apply, so that doesn't seem to matter to my question. In the OP, West did not alert 2NT because it was not discussed for this auction; but, regardless of his pass, he did guess the bid was intended as some kind of inquiry.

[Vampyr]

Near to the end of 2 sessions matchpoint event with no hospitality breaks.

 

 

I don't think I have ever played in a 2 session event that didn't have at least 1/2 hour between sessions for a sandwich. A 6-7 hour session with no meal break sounds cruel.

[olegru]

I don't think I have ever played in a 2 session event that didn't have at least 1/2 hour between sessions for a sandwich. A 6-7 hour session with no meal break sounds cruel.

We had 45 minutes between sessions.

[Vampyr]

We had 45 minutes between sessions.

 

45 minutes is short, but it is not no breaks.

[aguahombre]

Does the word "hospitality" have any significance, as opposed to a break between sessions?

 

Does anyone besides Lamford want to address the hand in question?

[Vampyr]

Does the word "hospitality" have any significance, as opposed to a break between sessions?

 

Does anyone besides Lamford want to address the hand in question?

 

OK, a mid-session break in which coffee, tea and biscuits are laid on. Nice at social events, presumably not used in serious events because they are normally insecure.

 

As to the hand in question, what is the difference between an "impossible bid" and an "undiscussed sequence"? I would always assume the latter, even when there is not UI about.

[mjj29]

As to the hand in question, what is the difference between an "impossible bid" and an "undiscussed sequence"? I would always assume the latter, even when there is not UI about.

An impossible bid would be "we've discussed that all possible hands respond one of these bids, and they bid something else" - for example, stayman which could be a bad hand looking to just play at the two level, and all hands will respond 2D, 2H or 2S in case partner wants to pass them with a bust. When partner bids 3N instead that's an 'impossible' bid.

 

An undiscussed sequence would be where you haven't discussed all the possible hands (or any), more likely a couple of rounds into the auction. Say, 1H-(2S)-X-(3C)-X-(XX)-4D - I would have no idea what's going on in this auction (well, I did just make it up, so maybe it's not sensible, but I think you get the point).

[mrdct]

OK, a mid-session break in which coffee, tea and biscuits are laid on. Nice at social events, presumably not used in serious events because they are normally insecure.

On the substantive issue of the hospitality break or lack thereof, I noted that in Gavin Wolpert excellent Road to Victory video series on www.bridgewinners.com he made several references to "hospitality breaks" in the Silodor Open Pairs at the most recent Spring Nationals so I guess the ACBL has these sort of breaks in some serious events, but I'd never heard of the term before I watched Gavin's video series.

 

On the hand itself, does the 2♥ bid promise 5-5 or 5-4? For most people I would presume the latter, so why would East want to play in a 4-3 ♦ fit at the 3-level when he has a known 5-2 ♥ at the 2-level which is almost certainly going to be taken out by South to ♠ anyway? The question is, did the UI of the Stop card demonstrably suggest the 2NT bid? I think not, as the action demonstrably suggested is "pass" (as opined by the OP). We then need to consider if there were any logical alternatives for East which would've been less successful and I would suggest that if 2♥ only promises 5-4, there really isn't any logical alternative to "pass". East-West stumbled upon a good result here as a result of the combination of East pulling out the non-systemic and undiscussed 2NT bid in a misguided attempt to be actively ethical and South failing to mention his ♠ suit at any of his several opportunities. If 2♥ promised only 5-4, table result stands.

 

Conversely, if 2♥ promises 5-5 then 3♦ could be a logical alternative for East showing a willingness to compete to 4♣ in a 10-card fit; although it wouldn't be my ultimate choice it would at least be in my contemplations. So in that sceanrio, I would do a poll of East's peers or make my own assessment of his bridge ability and style, and if 3♦ pops-up as an LA I'm going to try to predict how the auction may have progressed after 3♦. What was South's 1NT range?

[blackshoe]

On the term "hospitality break" I first read it in an English poster's response to, I think, a thread in the old IBLF, before we moved to BBO. It's not a term I've heard on the local bridge scene here. When I lived in England, 20 years ago, the club at which I played was in the local community center. Game time was 6:30 PM, we usually had 13 or 14 tables and played 26 or 28 boards, with a 15 minute break so folks could go downstairs and get a coffee or whatever or, I suppose, to the bar for a beer. Typically, I'd be home (a ten or fifteen minute walk) before 10:30. Here in Rochester, evening games start (mostly) at 7 or 7:15, "must" be done by 10 or 10:15, and play as many boards as can be squeezed in (at least 24, sometimes 26 or 27). There's no break. There's usually food and coffee available in the kitchen (most of our games here meet in a church or synagogue). Interesting story: some years ago, Audrey Grant gave a lecture on "how to run a bridge club" which was well attended by, among others, two ladies who ran what is now the largest game in Rochester (roughly 30 tables every Tuesday afternoon). One of the first things Audrey suggested was "don't serve food!" One of the ladies turned to the other and said "that's not gonna happen". :P The club served a pretty good spread then, and continues to do so. Both ladies have said to me that they think the food is one of the reasons the game has grown over the years. BTW, this Tuesday game starts at 12:30, and is usually over by 3:30 or shortly thereafter. Again, no breaks.

 

On the discussion of the hand in the OP, I don't have anything to add at this point. :o

[barmar]

In ACBL tourneys, a hospitality break is 5 minutes added to one or two round breaks, to allow runs to the rest room and for smokers to get their fix. They usually have them every 1-1.5 hours.

[Mbodell]

In ACBL tourneys, a hospitality break is 5 minutes added to one or two round breaks, to allow runs to the rest room and for smokers to get their fix. They usually have them every 1-1.5 hours.

 

They also, in theory, allow the slow pairs to catch up. The directors are usually pretty loose on enforcing time penalties or speeding people up, but if you "play through the break" and are still late (I.e., you are now 5-7 minutes behind in a 15 minute round) they'll start to get more serious about considering penalties.

[cloa513]

Near to the end of 2 sessions matchpoint event with no hospitality breaks.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk542h862dakqcq76&w=s87hak9543d72ck85&n=saqjthqtd86543c42&e=s963hj7djt9cajt93&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp1n2hd2nppd3cppdppp]399|300|[/hv]

 

After 1NT from South, West (my partner) put a stop card, then took it back and placed 2♥ bid.

2 ♥ alerted, explained as ♥ and a minor.

The first double from North is a take out.

After partners performance it was more or less clear that he did not see 1NT from West and intended 2♥ as a natural ♥ preemptive but our actual agreement is Cappelletti.

I would like to pass 2♥, but pass suggested by UI. I decided that asking for partner second suit is a LA and bid 2NT. The problem was that I was busy thinking about etiquette and LA so I forgot that 2♥ was doubled and request for the second suit would be redouble, not 2NT. 2NT bid in this bidding was impossible, at least our partnership never discussed it.

Before double 3♣ North ask how Partner understand 2NT and why it was not alerted.

Partner explained that it was the impossible bid, he could guess that I forgot that request for the second suit would be redouble and he did not alert because we have no agreements for any artificial meaning of the 2NT bid.

South took the ♦Ace, and lead a small trump (!) on the second round. 11 tricks.

Any reasons for adjustment?

Why did South pass 2NT even if it is natural/impossible when clearly 3♠ is his bid, is South's 1 NT normally 12-14 or 15-17 afterall West may be gambling a bit.

[bluejak]

... we should discuss whether partner should alert an impossible bid ---undiscussed on the given auction but nevertheless artificial ---and much easier for the alerting person to figure out than it would be for the opponents.

That is a matter for the TO and should be included in the alerting regulations.

 

:ph34r:

 

Hospitality breaks in NABCs are to make sure there is always a thirty person queue at the men's toilet when you want to go, and for people to play really slowly “because time does not matter” [i quote an opponent] without caring whether opponents need a break.

[aguahombre]

Maybe when the smoke clears here, or on a different thread, we should discuss whether partner should alert an impossible bid ---undiscussed on the given auction but nevertheless artificial ---and much easier for the alerting person to figure out than it would be for the opponents.

 

That is a matter for the TO and should be included in the alerting regulations.

And that means we shouldn't discuss it?

[Vampyr]

Hospitality breaks in NABCs are to make sure there is always a thirty person queue at the men's toilet when you want to go, and for people to play really slowly “because time does not matter” [i quote an opponent] without caring whether opponents need a break.

 

This does not seem as serious a matter as unsecure breaks during "real" (rather than social) events!

[aguahombre]

This does not seem as serious a matter as unsecure breaks during "real" (rather than social) events!

This has usually been more of a concern in K.O.'s than other events, and these are held in different places with different rules about breaks. Nothing is perfect, but I appreciate the hospitality breaks and there are enough people around in the smoking areas and in the bathrooms that I am not particularly worried about info leaks.

[mrdct]

Similar to many alerting regulations, the ACBL regs include, "Players who know that a call is Alertable, but cant remember the meaning, must Alert it anyway". In this case, however, West appears to have formed an opinion that 2NT was natural and non-forcing and as an "impossible bid" I don't think it is caught by any of the definitions in the ACBL regs to require an alert.

[sfi]

One local player, and a contributor to the 2007 Laws, alerts bids that have no systemic meaning, and explains them as "non-systemic". This came up a few years ago in a major event and he thought the opponents were entitled to know that it had no meaning, but not entitled to any guesses.

[mycroft]

I would assume that, if asked, said person would explain what systemic calls were available.

 

In other words, they're not entitled to any guesses from him, but they are entitled to be able to make the same guess that he can with the same information.

[sfi]

I would assume that, if asked, said person would explain what systemic calls were available.

 

In other words, they're not entitled to any guesses from him, but they are entitled to be able to make the same guess that he can with the same information.

 

Yes, he would - in gory detail as required by law.