1Valeria Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 [hv=d=s&v=b&s=sak10743h1076532d6c]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] South East North West Pass Pass 1C 1D1S Pass 2S 3D ? What do you bid on 3D? (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Thanks for answering Valeria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 4S. Need magic cards to make 6. Don't show the H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 4♠ :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 If partner never supports with a 3 card, then I'll bid 3♥ as help suit trial, and try for slam if I get a positive response. However, if partner supports from a 3 card, then I'll just bid 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 I'm tempted into looking at opponent's faces to see if an underbid of 3S would do the trick. The idea is bidding 4S over their 4D, hoping for a double or that opps will think I'm streching (thus they won't bid 5D, or might double 5S). Since 3S runs the risk of a pass out, I wouldn't do that with a pard that doesn't understand these sort of tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Another, more imptant reason to pass (besides avoiding ptship troubles) is that opening at the 1 level with less than 8 hcp is ILLEGAL for most tournament. Such hands can be opened only using weak openers at the 2-3 level. Stupid rule, as this hand demonstrates (hardly preemptive hand, excellent playing strength),but we have to comply with such rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 I wouldnt open this 1sp.If 4H is natural (fJ) ill bid it, if not, then 4s.I think the question to ask ourself is how far are we going to bid, are we going to bid 5s on 5d, or maybe 6s on 6d ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 [hv=d=s&v=b&s=sak10743h1076532d6c]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] South East North West Pass Pass 1C 1D1S Pass 2S 3D ? What do you bid on 3D? (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Thanks for answering Valeria With some perfect minimums making 7, I think I'll try 4♣ to see if that gets a 4♦ call out of my monkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 I'm tempted into looking at opponent's faces to see if an underbid of 3S would do the trick. The idea is bidding 4S over their 4D, hoping for a double or that opps will think I'm streching (thus they won't bid 5D, which might give me a hard time). Since 3S runs the risk of a pass out, I wouldn't do that with a pard that doesn't understand these sort of tactics. These tactics only work against beginners, and it has nothing to do with your partner since he 'has to' pass according to the tactic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Another, more imptant reason to pass (besides avoiding ptship troubles) is that opening at the 1 level with less than 8 hcp is ILLEGAL for most tournament. Such hands can be opened only using weak openers at the 2-3 level. Stupid rule, as this hand demonstrates (hardly preemptive hand, excellent playing strength),but we have to comply with such rules. I never heard of such rule, except in ACBL land... I don't know what other countries use this rule as well, but as you said it: it's a stupid rule! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 These tactics only work against beginners, and it has nothing to do with your partner since he 'has to' pass according to the tactic... That's what I meant by "look at their faces". If LHO is wiggling or RHO aching to bid again, I'd definitely try 4D. What I meant by pard "not understanding", is not what he might do during the bidding, but afterwards :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 I never heard of such rule, except in ACBL land... I don't know what other countries use this rule as well, but as you said it: it's a stupid rule! Zar quotes at least two other examples... He says the French federation uses the following definition of what an opening bid is "An opening of one of a suit can be made ONLY under the rule of 18 (HCP+a+:blink:, 16 in third seat". So here with 12 cards and 7 hcp... this would just be an opening bid... take away one in each major and move to minor, it would not be.... He says the WBF defines an opening bid as a hand “better than the average hand with a Queen worth!" I can't tell you whether or not this hand fits that definition or not. I would open this hand 1♠ anytime it was LEGAL to do so. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spwdo Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Another, more imptant reason to pass (besides avoiding ptship troubles) is that opening at the 1 level with less than 8 hcp is ILLEGAL for most tournament. Such hands can be opened only using weak openers at the 2-3 level. Stupid rule, as this hand demonstrates (hardly preemptive hand, excellent playing strength),but we have to comply with such rules. I never heard of such rule, except in ACBL land... I don't know what other countries use this rule as well, but as you said it: it's a stupid rule! Italian bridge federation to answer your question , free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Another, more imptant reason to pass (besides avoiding ptship troubles) is that opening at the 1 level with less than 8 hcp is ILLEGAL for most tournament. Such hands can be opened only using weak openers at the 2-3 level. Stupid rule, as this hand demonstrates (hardly preemptive hand, excellent playing strength),but we have to comply with such rules. Is it opening them that is illegal, or is it agreeing to open them? I am allowed to break the agreements I have with my partner aren't I? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Is it opening them that is illegal, or is it agreeing to open them? I am allowed to break the agreements I have with my partner aren't I? I think this is up to a certified director to give you a ruling. However, I believe you will be on your way to an adjusted board if you open this and then bid like you had a real openig bid afterwards. That is really sad, becasue I think any fair minded person would see that this is indeed an opening hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LH2650 Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 ACBL policy can be found on the General Convention Chart. It is: "DISALLOWED - Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show fewer than 8 HCP". This is designed to disallow systems that open very light on moderately balanced hands. It is not intended to overrule your bridge judgment. I have no such partnership agreement, and consider this an opening bid. Just to emphasize my point, I will contend that this meets the old ACBL policy about opening a Strong, Artificial 2 Club bid. (I do not propose opening 2C!) It was "A reasonable expectation of making game when played in the best strain". Suppose you caught xxx, xxx, xxx, xxxx. Would you rather hold this hand or the one you last had when you opened 2C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 ACBL policy can be found on the General Convention Chart. It is: "DISALLOWED - Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show fewer than 8 HCP". This is designed to disallow systems that open very light on moderately balanced hands. It is not intended to overrule your bridge judgment. I have no such partnership agreement, and consider this an opening bid. Just to emphasize my point, I will contend that this meets the old ACBL policy about opening a Strong, Artificial 2 Club bid. (I do not propose opening 2C!) It was "A reasonable expectation of making game when played in the best strain". Suppose you caught xxx, xxx, xxx, xxxx. Would you rather hold this hand or the one you last had when you opened 2C?I don't understand your point, 2C is not a 1-level opening. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Is it opening them that is illegal, or is it agreeing to open them? I am allowed to break the agreements I have with my partner aren't I? I think this is up to a certified director to give you a ruling. However, I believe you will be on your way to an adjusted board if you open this and then bid like you had a real openig bid afterwards. That is really sad, becasue I think any fair minded person would see that this is indeed an opening hand. Interesting. I would have have thought that as long as partner "bids like you have a real opening bid" (real according to your agreements, that is), then it would be OK. Suppose your agreements were a modified Rule of 20 :- length of 2 longest suits plus HCP in two longest suits, plus A&K HCP in short suits (i.e. normal rule of 20, but discounting Quacks in short suits). This hand fails to qualify (by a point), but I think you would be allowed to open it, as long as partner doesn't play you for this hand. Judgement can't be outlawed can it? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Judgement can't be outlawed can it? Eric yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helium Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 (First seat you pass, tho you have 28 ZAR points because opening might create some problems with your partner) Another, more imptant reason to pass (besides avoiding ptship troubles) is that opening at the 1 level with less than 8 hcp is ILLEGAL for most tournament. Such hands can be opened only using weak openers at the 2-3 level. Stupid rule, as this hand demonstrates (hardly preemptive hand, excellent playing strength),but we have to comply with such rules. This was news to me also and i think its rater silly if u cant open 1 ♠on this hand, and what if u do it as a spyke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Opening this hand is not the end of the world and violates no laws. I'm quite open about bidding with this hand type, although I think I might pass this as I doubt I will get shut out. To my consdierations is "what would you do if partner made a F raise of S, and you had some interference"? Considering that idea I simply feel it is easier to pass.I would never consider," even in a drunken stupor" bidding 4C in serach of the magic hand, nor 4D which just might end up getting you to the 5 level which might fail when it is possible partner could have a 3 card major suit raise, a prime concern must be 3 card support. To expect to have a slam on these cards is just wishful thinking when partner bid 2S and not 3 and may lead to a loss of 11 imps far more often than a gain. As Barry Crane said, "what ever cards you are playing me for, I don't have" I could go much furhter into this particular reasoning, but will happily leave the percentages to the math people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 This was news to me also and i think its rater silly if u cant open 1 ♠on this hand, and what if u do it as a spyke? Arrrgh. Deliberately misdescribing your hand in order to get around the rules is not going to win you many friends among TDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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