Let's Settle This Once And For All

[kfay]

1♠-2♦

2♥-3♣

 

Natural or No? (2/1)

[wyman]

your location is wrong imo

 

edit:

• Location:Ann Arbor, MI

[gwnn]

Natural.

 

<3 kfay welcome back, i missed you :(

[Hanoi5]

Artificial.

[EricK]

Natural.

Artificial.

Well I'm glad we've settled that one.

[jillybean]

Natural. I'm interested as to why would you need artificial in an already gf auction?

[nigel_k]

Artificial.

 

If I have Ax Kxx AQJxx xxx I really want to bid 3♣ artifical. If I have x xx AQJxx AQxxx I can bid 2NT. There is room for partner to bid 3♣ next and even if he does we may still belong in NT.

[gnasher]

I'm interested as to why would you need artificial in an already gf auction?

It's so that you can avoid misdescribing or wrongsiding Kx KJx AQxxx xxx.

[gnasher]

Instead of argung the merits of two imperfect methods, maybe it would be better to try to solve the underlying problem, which is that we have one more hand-type to show than we have bids available.

 

This appears to solve all the problems at small cost:

 

2♠ = 2353 or a notrump-oriented 2254, with or without a club stop

2NT = 3-card spade support

3♣ = natural

[whereagles]

You can make a good case for 2 meanings:

 

1. Natural, 55 or better and slam-aspiring hand.

2. Artificial, asking for a stop in the suit bid.

 

I have it settled in my notes as #2.

[Siegmund]

Artificial for me.

[phil_20686]

I play 2N = shape asking relay, and 3c = asking for a club stop.

 

 

if you are, say, 2-3-5-3 as suggested in 2/1 I would bid 3c without a club stop and 2N if I had one, in both cases expecting to hear 3d with 3 card support. For me 2S guarantees 3S. If you are, say 1-3-6-3 you should bid 3d if your diamonds are good, this is still GF for me. If you are 1-3-5-4, then the 2N shape ask will uncover if partner has 3d, if he bids 3c to pattern out I would bid 3N. Thus you can use the shape ask with 55 minors. This is pretty normal 2/1 agreements where I play.

[phil_20686]

Instead of argung the merits of two imperfect methods, maybe it would be better to try to solve the underlying problem, which is that we have one more hand-type to show than we have bids available.

 

This appears to solve all the problems at small cost:

 

2♠ = 2353 or a notrump-oriented 2254, with or without a club stop

2NT = 3-card spade support

3♣ = natural

 

The problem hand seems to be 1-3-6-3 with poor diamonds, or 2-3-5-3 with reasonable diamnds and xxx clubs. Both of which could play much better in 5D opposite a 5-4-3-1 shape,

[aguahombre]

How about, "yes"...it is natural or artificial. Opener continues with pattern, primarily; but with 5-4-2-2 only rebids 3NT with HX in clubs, otherwise bids 3D.

 

edit: with 5-4-0-4, opener doesn't get to raise clubs.

Edited November 2, 2011 by aguahombre

[MrAce]

1♠-2♦

2♥-3♣

 

Natural or No? (2/1)

 

I agree with Aguaman

 

Does it really matter if it is artificial or natural for the opener, at this stage ?

[Free]

ART

 

What's the need for this to be natural? Chances of a 4-4 ♣ fit are very small, responder can easily bid 2NT with stopper ♣ and then opener can pattern out. Without a ♣ stopper he can now bid 4th suit and opener knows what's going on.

[Zelandakh]

From what I have seen, natural in USA (and perhaps Canada), artificial in most of the rest of the world. I prefer Free's approach here to back into the club fit when it is necessary but hide it when we are playing 3NT anyway. This seems to be the simplest way without playing some gadget to cope with otherwise awkward hands.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I say it is natural ( 3 or 4 cards ) and NO ♣-stop ( or a half-stop ) .

 

3C says: no 3s, no 4h, no 6d ... ergo: 2 3 5 3 or 2 3 4 4 .

 

[ With ♣-stop(s), you would have rebid some number of NT ] .

[Free]

Partner can also have a poor 6 card suit which he doesn't want to bid. However, in that case he'll usually have ♠Hx (rebid 2♠) or a ♣ stopper (rebid 2NT). So I guess natural can make some sense, I just don't play it that way... :)

[kfay]

The auction came up recently where I was bidding a hand with another forum member.

 

For him 3♣ was artificial, so he was forced to bid 2NT with Jx --- A109xxx AQJxx

 

I was 5422 so aside from some miscommunication that arose surrounding the 2N bid I thought the auction would have really sucked playing these methods and made it basically impossible to reach 6m (which is on) without blind guessing.

 

I realize this hand is less frequent than the hand that wants to bid 2NT. Still, it seems real screwed up to me that people can't bid clubs naturally (or at least confidently at some level) playing 'good' methods.

 

Maybe I'm coming around on this whole artificial business but I doubt I'll be playing it anytime soon (not because of this hand but just because of general principles).

[whereagles]

If you play 3C as artificial you could play 4C as natural, no? :)

[kfay]

If you play 3C as artificial you could play 4C as natural, no? :)

 

Of course it's natural. That doesn't mean it's not a bad bid on this hand.

[mike777]

Artificial means you dont promise a real club suit it does not mean you deny a real club suit.

 

semantics as usual matters.

 

 

bid 3c artificial means you dont promise a real club suit but you may have one. partner makes a natural rebid.

 

 

Example:

 

Precision one club or 1d is artificial, it does not promise a real club or diamond suit, but it does not deny a real suit.

 

---

 

 

btw it seems that in your style 2nt is artificial, was it alerted?

 

 

btw2 from what I can tell it still looks like it could be tough to reach slam.

[MrAce]

The auction came up recently where I was bidding a hand with another forum member.

 

For him 3♣ was artificial, so he was forced to bid 2NT with Jx --- A109xxx AQJxx

 

I was 5422 so aside from some miscommunication that arose surrounding the 2N bid I thought the auction would have really sucked playing these methods and made it basically impossible to reach 6m (which is on) without blind guessing.

 

I realize this hand is less frequent than the hand that wants to bid 2NT. Still, it seems real screwed up to me that people can't bid clubs naturally (or at least confidently at some level) playing 'good' methods.

 

Maybe I'm coming around on this whole artificial business but I doubt I'll be playing it anytime soon (not because of this hand but just because of general principles).

 

 

3♣ is artificial only if pd doesnt want to bid NT due to wrong siding issues. Note that he could have made this with 3♦ too, so what does he have in worst case ? 2353 no ♣ stopper ? Otherwise its pretty much natural and thats why in my previous board i mentioned it doesnt matter for opener at this stage to know since his actions will be almost same most of the time.

 

Having said that, i would bid 3 ♣ with your pd's hand. What can opener do ? He can bid 3NT with ♣ K , he can bid 3♥ to show 5-5, he can bid 3♠ even with 5 to say he doesnt have ♣ stopper...If pd bids 3NT he knows pd has ♣ K and he can lift to 4♣ now more comfy than direct 4♣. If pd bids anything else he has an easy 3 NT bid to tell his 3♣ was natural or he would have bid 2 NT or 3 NT (depends on style) previous round. You may argue of course if opener will know the ♣ suit is 4 or 5 cards, imo it doesnt make sense to bid 3 ♣ followed by 3 NT with only 4, i maybe wrong tho.

[the_dude]

Artificial means you dont promise a real club suit it does not mean you deny a real club suit.

 

semantics as usual matters.

 

 

bid 3c artificial means you dont promise a real club suit but you may have one. partner makes a natural rebid.

 

 

Spot on ... absent unusual conventional agreements, it's a typical 4th suit bid: "all other bids are precisely defined and mine doesn't meet any of those but I need to make a forcing bid". The fact that you are already in a GF isn't that relevant. You may have clubs or may not .. you are just expecting partner to bid out his hand.