had enough yet?

[manudude03]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak642hak7dcaq962&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dppd2d2sp4dp4sp5cp5dp]133|200[/hv]

 

Maybe you don't agree with the choices up to this point, but I was looking for some life from partner after his free bid, now we got it.... what now?

[whereagles]

There seems to be some wastage in diamonds, so I'll just settle for 6S now. Should have some play for.

[aguahombre]

Will look for club king. 5H now.

[MrAce]

Pd made a free 2♠ bid, he either has 5♠ or at least Qxxx and some ♦ values. He doesn't have ♣K for sure. Problem is how many ♣ he has ? If he has xxx ♣ it is dangerous but depends on his shape really. He is likely to have 4♦ since RHO did not raise after his initial pass.

 

If he has 5143 one of the ♣ going on ♥.

If he has 5242 looks we are okay

 

If he has only 4 trumps and/or less than 4♦, then things get complicated but he has to have a reason to bid a free 2♠ and then not to bid 5♠ over 5♣ with this. Depends on how he interpreted the 5♣ bid. Are u asking ♣ help or you have good ♣ and worried about ♥ suit since the contract is wrongsided ? He already showed no interest over splinter, now his 5♦ is actually encouraging, after all he could shut down by 5♠ bid imo.

 

I would bid 6♠ now and in the worst case he may play for Kx doubleton ♣ with opener.

[MrAce]

Will look for club king. 5H now.

 

He already told he doesnt have it and u dont need it in many cases anyway.

 

Qxxxx xx ??xx xx

[aguahombre]

He already told he doesnt have it (club king) and u dont need it in many cases anyway.

 

Qxxxx xx ??xx xx

When did he deny the club king? While he was denying any type of heart control over 4D? I don't think I would have bid 5C as advancer with QXXX(X) XXX KXX KX(X)

[MrAce]

When did he deny the club king? While he was denying any type of heart control over 4D? I don't think I would have bid 5C as advancer with QXXX(X) XXX KXX KX(X)

 

You are not listening to bidding. You are focused on very small part of the bidding (control cues) and missing the whole picture.

 

He denied when he did not bid slam ♠ or 6♣ over 5♣. As u said very well he denied ♥ control and we are still bidding 5♣. He would have bid slam with ♣K already unless he thinks u are bidding 5♣ for the sake of bidding something. And i repeat, you probably dont need ♣K to make slam.

 

You are also focused on ♣K too much. ♣J is as good as K. Among possible shapes he may have, 5233 without ♣J is the only one that seems to be worst for slam but then again why did not he shut down with 5♠ over 5♣ ?

 

5♦ is probably last attempt he can make, how much more do you want him to bid with a hand QJxxx xx KJxx xx or Qxxxx xx KJx Jxx ? Most people would not even bid that much with these hands and shut down already over 5♣. Stop torturing your pd :)

[aguahombre]

You are focused on slam. I am focused on a grand. For a small slam we don't need the club king, and we are not stopping short of six.

 

If Partner's 5D was because you bid 4D...showing a control as well, he still might have XXXXX XXX KXX KX.

[MrAce]

You are focused on slam. I am focused on a grand. For a small slam we don't need the club king, and we are not stopping short of six.

 

If Partner's 5D was because you bid 4D...showing a control as well, he still might have XXXXX XXX KXX KX.

 

 

 

 

If u are telling me you will lift his 5♠ to slam, u deserve to be lifted to grand with xx ♣ and ♦A or with Qxxxx Qx Axx xxx.

[cnszsun]

5D must have showed ace after knowing your diamond shortness, then he can't have club king anymore. 6S still has fair chances but not so attractive, so i guess it's close to 6.

[MrAce]

Besides, if u are going to bid grandslam on ♣ K, why all this trouble ? Bid 4 NT over 2♠ and then bid 5 NT to ask specific kings, or is it too simple and practical bid for forums ?

 

EDIT: xxxxx xxx Kxx Kx is not an option for pd to have for reasons i already explained. But if i were OP, i would just bid 4NT over 4♠ just to be able to aks ♣K later and save everyone from solving a puzzle.

[aguahombre]

If u are telling me you will lift his 5♠ to slam, u deserve to be lifted to grand with xx ♣ and ♦A or with Qxxxx Qx Axx xxx.

Back to the title: "Had" enough yet?" Yes, when you start assuming partner is a moron who would raise 6S to seven with that.

[MrAce]

Back to the title: "Had" enough yet?" Yes, when you start assuming partner is a moron who would raise 6S to seven with that.

 

Not really, pd may think "if my pd is not a moron, he could learn my ♣K simply by asking for it, thus he must be looking for doubleton or Q in ♣ suit "

 

Because asking a 3rd round control in a side suit eventhough available, not as standart as asking specific Kings. I dunno what OP really meant by the title of this topic, since he seemed to choose the fancy cue bid path for grandslam hand instead of asking partner what he was supposed to be asking clearly. And now you expect partner to ignore this fact and act as if we are moron and not bid grand. Maybe he will not maybe he will, whatever the outcome is, we are the ones who is starting all this mess instead of being clear about what we want to learn from pd.

 

Your turn cmon

[aguahombre]

O.K., if my moron bids a grand over 6S with XXXXX QX AXXX XX, I will accept the luck. Not all of us have specific king asks at our disposal, so we probably wouldn't consider Wooding with a void earlier in the auction to set it up.

 

The cue bid route seemed normal at the time.

[MrAce]

O.K., if my moron bids a grand over 6S with XXXXX QX AXXX XX, I will accept the luck. Not all of us have specific king asks at our disposal, so we probably wouldn't consider Wooding with a void earlier in the auction to set it up.

 

The cue bid route seemed normal at the time.

 

I said Qxxxx Qx Axx xxx and if u are telling me u dont have the specific kings in your disposal but solve the grandslam hands by cueing, more power to ya, it just sounds funny to me to be honest, sorry. It always amazed me how imaginative people can be when they decide to defend something that doesnt make sense at the first place.

 

If u are telling me you will lift his 5♠ to slam, u deserve to be lifted to grand with xx ♣ and ♦A OR with Qxxxx Qx Axx xxx.

 

Basically the way u choose to bid, i think u tell your pd that you have the ♣ AK imo. And trying to figure his ♣ cards for grand. But all these as i said before requires interpretation of both partners. I said it is funny because when someone doesnt use specific kings, they will have to go thru this torture sessions each time at 5 level, sometimes they will be in same wavelenght and sometime they won't.

 

And even when u dont play specific kings, you can still bid 4NT over 4♠ and bid 6♣ to ask him to lift with ♣ help. Don't tell me this asks 3rd round control in ♣ suit, because this will also be funny to be able to ask specific 3rd round control but not be able to ask specific K by agreement. (since u dont play specific kings)

[Fluffy]

Timo partner doesn't hold ♦K, he has ♦A partner is not stupid and won't cue a useless king.

 

♦A gets rid of the heart, and now we have good chances in 6♠, if no trump loser all we need is ♣K or ♣J or doubleton in partner's hands, even ♣xxx can be enough with 5 trumps ednplaying west on a non club lead. ♠Q ♦A ♣K is not science fiction but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable enough to bid grand anyway.

[Zelandakh]

Any takers for 4NT after 4S here? Of course we do not really care too much whether we hear 0 or 1 but it gives the chance to find out simply about the CK without having to make any assumptions about what partner may or may not be thinking about.

[manudude03]

The hand was part of an online junior trials tourney yesterday. I was tempted to post this as an ATB.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s8hqt8642dj2c8753&w=sak642hak7dcaq962&n=sqj5hj5dkq9654ck4&e=st973h93dat873cjt&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dppd2d2sp4dp4sp5cp5dp6sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Trumps 3-1 and the ♣K offside meant even 6S went off 1, losing 5.67 in a very mixed field. One other pair got to 6S-1, there was one 5S-1, a 4S+1 and the rest were partscores (!!). On the round after, one of the directors pm'ed me saying that although its not a terrible slam, he thinks I've said enough after bidding 5C and seeing 5D come back and should just sign off.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Any takers for 4NT after 4S here? Of course we do not really care too much whether we hear 0 or 1 but it gives the chance to find out simply about the CK without having to make any assumptions about what partner may or may not be thinking about.

I was thinking the same thing.

If partner has the ♦ A , then your Ht loser has a parking spot.

 

Next, you can ask for the ♠ Q ... if he has it, you will find out about the ♣ K as well.

If ♠Q but no ♣K, then you can hope he has the ♣J.

[Hanoi5]

I don't like partner's 2♠. I would have gotten to 6, too.

[manudude03]

Thought about 4NT myself, but there are so many near busts which make slam and even gives grand play (xxxxx Qx xxxx xx needs trumps 2-1 and the ♣K coming down in 3 rounds to make grand etc) so decided to cuebid and hope partner gets the message that I just need something useful. The problem with asking for the trump Q is that partner probably doesn't know xxxxx is good enough (when did we show the 5th spade?)

[Zelandakh]

I thought about this too but I also thought that partner would have Qxxx or xxxxx in spades for the 2S bid. Hence I did not mention looking for the trump queen after 4NT. This is a case where knowing your partner's competitive tendencies would be helpful.

[Fluffy]

tough luck, partner's 2 spades is an overbid IMO, I wouldn't do it opposite a direct double, a reopening double should be even worse. Even then, spades 2-2 would had been enough.

[MrAce]

Timo partner doesn't hold ♦K, he has ♦A partner is not stupid and won't cue a useless king.

♦A gets rid of the heart, and now we have good chances in 6♠, if no trump loser all we need is ♣K or ♣J or doubleton in partner's hands, even ♣xxx can be enough with 5 trumps ednplaying west on a non club lead. ♠Q ♦A ♣K is not science fiction but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable enough to bid grand anyway.

 

I dont understand what u are trying to say to be honest.

 

I never said pd has ♦ A or K, and i dont even care what he has in ♦. I dont even need to discard a ♥ on ♦ A, i will do it on ♣ suit. I never suggested to bid short of slam either. All i said was that i wld bid slam now and i wld not look for grand because i was % 100 sure pd did not have ♣K. He would have bid slam if he had both ♦A and ♣K.

 

This was the main debate between me and Aguaman, he believed pd still can have ♣K after his 5♦ bid and i defended the idea that he can not. The idea that we shd have bid 4NT over 4♠ was mine too, just to be able to ask specific Kings afterwards. Instead of fancy cuebidding your way to grandslam.

 

So i dunno what part of my argument you disagree with.

[MrAce]

Thought about 4NT myself, but there are so many near busts which make slam and even gives grand play (xxxxx Qx xxxx xx needs trumps 2-1 and the ♣K coming down in 3 rounds to make grand etc) so decided to cuebid and hope partner gets the message that I just need something useful. The problem with asking for the trump Q is that partner probably doesn't know xxxxx is good enough (when did we show the 5th spade?)

 

You dont need ♣K coming in 3rd, u can handle Kxxx ♣ too.