does nmf promise 5M?

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj72hq5dt94cjt4&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1sp1np2dp2hp]300|300[/hv]

 

Playing nmf (no xyz)

 

Does 2♦ "guarantee" 5♠?

Is the correct bid here 2N or 2♠?

[aguahombre]

The way we play NMF on this start is:

 

either, 5S invite+ (maybe 4 hearts) OR

Invite with 5+ diamonds OR

Slammish for clubs. (not guaranteeing 5 spades)

 

Therefore, we would bid 2NT on this sequence.

[Bbradley62]

Nmf shows five ♠ in the same way that a one-level overcall does; you play it as showing five, but it is conceivable that you've done it on only four.

[jmcw]

Agreements will vary from partnership to partnership. Playing Walsh will also impact your rebid options over 1NT.

 

In your sequence 2NT is the correct rebid.

2♦ asked opener to show 3♠ or 4♥, since you are not raising ♥ you must have 5♠. With only 4♠ you would have simply raised 1NT to 2NT, and with 4/4 in the M you would call 1♥ and your fisrt turn.

IMO XYZ is far better and is well worth working out the agreement with your fav partner.

[bd71]

Nmf shows five ♠ in the same way that a one-level overcall does; you play it as showing five, but it is conceivable that you've done it on only four.

 

I'm not sure I see such a strong parallel here. 4-card overcalls are typically forced, "least bad option", type of solutions. Yet aquahombre did a good job of identifying two types of hands where NMF is an easy, "WTP", forcing bid without having more than 4 spades.

 

My answer to the OP would have been "it ultimately depends on how you agree to play it", but I would expect standard NMF to NOT guarantee 5 spades, although that's the most frequent hand type.

[Siegmund]

IMO, the simple one-word answer is "no, it doesn't."

 

One reason you use NMF is to see if you have a 5-3 fit in your first major or a 4-4 fit in the other; the other big reason you use NMF is when you hold a hand the wrong strength for a jump to the 3-level. (Playing Root-Pavlicek style, you NMF with many inv hands and the immediate jumps are GF; most non-XYZ 2/1ers do the opposite, NMF with many GF hands and the immediate jumps are inv.)

 

Now... bearing that in mind... NMF followed by a 3C/3D rebid may not promise a fifth spade, but NMF followed by a heart bid does -- and, in the case of your auction, if you have 1m-1S-1NT-2NT available as a natural raise, then 1C-1S-1NT-2D-2H-2NT must logically promise an invitation with exactly five spades, while 2S can promise six.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Both Siegman and jmcw provide excellant reviews of this sequence.

 

Another point to emphasize is that the 2♥ reply does NOT deny 3 cards ♠ .

 

One learned fellow came up with an interesting "toy" for the NMF sequences involving a 1♠ initial response :

1m - 1S

1NT - 2om!

??

..2H = min, 4h, may have 3s

..3H jump = max, 4h AND 3s

[gwnn]

2♠ is correct here, as partner can pass it with a minimum and a doubleton spade.

[aguahombre]

2♠ is correct here, as partner can pass it with a minimum and a doubleton spade.

Of course, if the responses to NMF included the fact that 2H already showed a minimum with a doubleton spade (with or without 4 hearts)---then 2S would set trumps with a huge hand and 6+ spades for easy slam exploration. For this we give up the pleasure of playing in 2S on a five-two fit instead of 2NT when we have around 22-24 between us.

 

Just a matter of choice; others prefer 2H response to NMF to show 4 hearts and other rebids to be less exact.

[kenrexford]

So much going on here is partnership-agreement dependent. That said, I prefer myself the approach where Opener shows support for Responder's first suit as his first priority, such that 2♥ denies three spades.

[gwnn]

Of course, if the responses to NMF included the fact that 2H already showed a minimum with a doubleton spade (with or without 4 hearts)---then 2S would set trumps with a huge hand and 6+ spades for easy slam exploration. For this we give up the pleasure of playing in 2S on a five-two fit instead of 2NT when we have around 22-24 between us.

 

Just a matter of choice; others prefer 2H response to NMF to show 4 hearts and other rebids to be less exact.

Your choice seems erroneous. When opener shows a minimum and balanced, you don't need to keep the bidding so low on a slam try hand. I just don't see what auction will you really need that much space, sorry. Playing in a 5-2 fit on the 2 level is very good, though, a clear on 2N.

 

Anyway, very few people play 2♥ like you apparently play and that wasn't what jillybean asked us about.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Depending, how you play NMF:

 

#1 2D does not show 5 spades, depending how you play it, going via

NMF is the only way to raise clubs in a forcing manner.

#2 It is quite commoen for opener to show the secondary spade support

before showing the heart suit, in which case hence 2H from opener would

deny 3 spades.

#3 Again depending, how you play it, ..., bidding 2S over 2H sets up a GF,

which may also be the case for 2NT.

Playing NMF this way is similar to playing FSF as inv.+ (*):

if reponder uses NMF, he showes inv. values, if he bids again below game,

he showes game forcing values.

(*) I know, this is not very common in North America, but ...

 

So with #2 and if does not set up a GF, 2NT is the bid.

So with #2 and if 2NT sets up a GF, 2NT instead of 2D, would be the bid,

on the ground, that opener can still show 3 card spade support (or 4 hearts),

if he happens to have them together with a max.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[aguahombre]

Anyway, very few people play 2♥ like you apparently play and that wasn't what jillybean asked us about.

O.K. so, we should only post what most people play, and not include the context of our choices even if they are relevant to what was asked ---in this case whether to bid 2S or 2NT after NMF.

[gwnn]

For example if I play that 1C shows 8-10 any, and 2H shows 6-7 hearts with no spade support, we should pass here. But because jillybean obviously doesn'y play my system or yours, your reply or mine would be beside the point.

[han]

If 3C is invitational then you may bid 2D on a GF hand with clubs. So it cannot show 5 spades.

[aguahombre]

I forgot to mention one other possibility where NMF does not guarantee 5 of the major.

 

Responder has a big balanced (19-ish) hand, and can find out immediately whether opener has the usual trash 11-12 or a nice 13-14, and pretty much her precise suit distributions, without the 4NT quantitative bash.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

A sometimes poster here [ PriorKnowledge ] offered his observation on the subject of the NMF auction after a 1S response ( from 2005 on another message board ) :

 

1m - 1S

1NT - 2om!

??

 

" Which should opener show first: the 4-card heart suit or the 3-card spade support? It is commonly accepted that with both 4-4 and 5-3 major fits, that playing in the 4-4 fit is better . If responder has 5 spades and 4 hearts and Opener has 4 hearts and 3 spades, then the best contract is hearts.

 

" One of the partners must show his/her 4-card heart suit so that hearts can be played. It is logical that Opener shows the 4 hearts before the 3 spades. The reason is simple: If Responder shows the 4-card heart suit after Opener has shown 3-card spade support and Opener does not have both 4 hearts and 3 spades, then the defense will know about Declarer’s ( Responder's) 4-card heart suit. ( Whereas ) If opener shows 4 hearts before 3 spades and Responder only has 5 spades and not 4 hearts, then Opener will be exposed as dummy after the opening lead and the defense will not be helped as much.

 

He offered these NMF bidding sequences involving Hts and Sp:

1m - 1S

1NT - 2om! ( NMF )

??

.. 2H = min, 4h, may also have 3s

......... - 2S = non-forcing, 5s, denies 4h

.EDIT: - 3H = game force, 5s/4h

......... - 3S jump = game force, 6s, denies 4h

......... - 3NT = game force, 5s, denies 4h

............... 4S = Opener has both 4h and 3s

 

.. 3H = max ( commits to a game when showing a max ), 4h, may also have 3s

........ - 3S = 6+s, denies 4h

........ - 3NT = 5s, denies 4h

 

.. 2S = min, 3s, denies 4h

........ - 3H = game force, 5s / 5h

 

.. 3S = max ( GF ), 3s, denies 4h

[kenrexford]

" One of the partners must show his/her 4-card heart suit so that hearts can be played. It is logical that Opener shows the 4 hearts before the 3 spades. The reason is simple: If Responder shows the 4-card heart suit after Opener has shown 3-card spade support and Opener does not have both 4 hearts and 3 spades, then the defense will know about Declarer’s ( Responder's) 4-card heart suit. ( Whereas ) If opener shows 4 hearts before 3 spades and Responder only has 5 spades and not 4 hearts, then Opener will be exposed as dummy after the opening lead and the defense will not be helped as much.

 

 

This is somewhat weird. Apparently the idea is to keep secrets when Responder declares spade contracts about Responder's heart length, if that does not matter. That's quite a subtle benefit at the cost of a lot of technique (like all the hands where you want to agree spades and start cuebidding). But, if this was really a concern, Responder, after 2S, could use some artificial call to ask if Opener also has four hearts all the time, like 3H. If Opener has four hearts, he bids 3NT. Without four, he bids 3S. Then, when Responder doesn't care, he always bids 4♠ no matter what Opener showed. This would be a "hide the ball" asking bid. You ask when you don't care to keep pattern hidden when you do care.

[jillybean]

Thanks all. Here are the full hands and the actual auction, which was horrid.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj72hq5dt94cjt4&n=st86hkjt3dkqck532&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1sp1np2dp2hp3nppp]288|200[/hv]

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Thanks all. Here are the full hands and the actual auction, which was horrid.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj72hq5dt94cjt4&n=st86hkjt3dkqck532&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1sp1np2dp2hp3nppp]288|200[/hv]

 

Responder has a 9 loser hand... not worth [ EDIT: even an invitation after ] a NMF bid after Opener shows a minimum even if s/he has 3 cards Sp :

 

1C - 1S

1NT ( 12-14 ) - 2D!

2H ( min, 4h, may have 3s ) - 2S ( 5s, no 4h, non-forcing )

pass

Edited October 29, 2011 by TWO4BRIDGE

[jillybean]

Responder has a 9 loser hand... not worth a NMF bid after Opener shows a minimum even if s/he has 3 cards Sp :

 

1C - 1S

1NT ( 12-14 ) - 2D!

2H ( min, 4h, may have 3s ) - 2S ( 5s, no 4h, non-forcing )

pass

 

Agree, but I think I (North) should have corrected 3N to 4♠

[Zelandakh]

Agree, but I think I (North) should have corrected 3N to 4♠

Why? What if Responder just had a big hand and was using nmf to avoid having to bid 4NT? Presumably the 3NT bidder thought that 2H also denied 3 spades whereas the 2H bidder thought you show the 4 hearts before 3 spades. FWiiW the simple (B/I) version of nmf is that bidding nmf followed by something else shows one hand type stronger than bidding the same thing directly. So 2S over 1NT would be weak and therefore nmf followed by 2S is just an invite. This is the style I would expect when a PUP agree nmf without further discussion.