Only a limit raise?

[Bbradley62]

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M6872,~~M6870,~~M6871|st%7C%7Cmd%7C4S49QKAH4JDAC49TJA%2CS3JH39QKD2679JC35%2CS56TH68TAD4TQKC2K%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%202%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7CMajor%20suit%20opening%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%201%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7CForcing%20one%20notrump%20--%203-%20S%3B%206%2B%20HCP%3B%2012-%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3C%7Can%7CStrong%20hand%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2019-2%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3S%7Can%7C3%20S%3B%2011-12%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CBlackwood%20%28S%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2022%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5D%7Can%7COne%20or%20four%20key%20cards%20--%203%20S%3B%2011-12%20total%20points%3B%201%2B%20controls%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6S%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2022%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CCQ%7C]360|270[/hv]Has GIB's hand evaluation algorithm been tweaked recently such that North is only valued at 12 HCP total points? Edited October 25, 2011 by Bbradley62

[Bbradley62]

But, this North is 8+ total points...

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M6872,~~M6870,~~M6871|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S69AH246QD8AC3QKA%2CS3JKH8TD247TC2479%2CS2458TH357JKDJC6J%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%203%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7CMinor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%201%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7COne%20over%20one%20--%204%2B%20S%3B%206%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7C2D%7Can%7CSimple%20overcall%20--%209%2B%20HCP%3B%20rebiddable%20D%3B%2010%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7C2H%7Can%7COpener%20reverse%20--%205%2B%20C%3B%204%2B%20H%3B%203-%20S%3B%2021-%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7CRaise%20--%204%2B%20H%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%204-card%20S%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4H%7Can%7C5%2B%20C%3B%204%2B%20H%3B%203-%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2018-22%20total%20p%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CDT%7C]360|270[/hv]

[georgi]

What used to bid North with hand#1(board2)?

[Bbradley62]

Has GIB's hand evaluation algorithm been tweaked recently such that North is only valued at 12 HCP?

What used to bid North with hand#1(board2)?

I don't know, which is why I asked the question instead of making a statement. I just don't recall ever thinking "that hand is too strong for a limit raise" before.

[cloa513]

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M6872,~~M6870,~~M6871|st%7C%7Cmd%7C4S49QKAH4JDAC49TJA%2CS3JH39QKD2679JC35%2CS56TH68TAD4TQKC2K%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%202%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7CMajor%20suit%20opening%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%201%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7CForcing%20one%20notrump%20--%203-%20S%3B%206%2B%20HCP%3B%2012-%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3C%7Can%7CStrong%20hand%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2019-2%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3S%7Can%7C3%20S%3B%2011-12%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CBlackwood%20%28S%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2022%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5D%7Can%7COne%20or%20four%20key%20cards%20--%203%20S%3B%2011-12%20total%20points%3B%201%2B%20controls%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6S%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2022%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CCQ%7C]360|270[/hv]Has GIB's hand evaluation algorithm been tweaked recently such that North is only valued at 12 HCP?

You mean 12 TP- which is of course inconsistant with other evaluations.

[georgi]

I don't know, which is why I asked the question instead of making a statement. I just don't recall ever thinking "that hand is too strong for a limit raise" before.

 

1 minor - 1NT -> -- 3- H; 3- S; 6-10 HCP; 7+ total points

1 Major - 1NT -> Forcing one notrump -- 3- Major; 6+ HCP; 12- total points

 

As GIB can use 1minor - 2NT to show balanced invite with 11-12 HCP, 1NT is promising less.

As GIB can't use 1major - 2NT to show the same meaning due this is !Jacoby -> support; balanced -- 4+ Major; 13+ total points it must pick up other bid.

So with stronger hand GIB will bid GF 2♣/♦ or higher etc, depend on holdings.

 

Even looking stronger, it's hand which could be described later ( North doesn't consider 1NT it will be passed ). So 3♠ duly delivers information it was good support with 3rd fit and good slam was reached.

[Bbradley62]

"A good slam was reached" because South has a mountain; the auction and play would have been the same (I hope) if North had not had ♦Q. (I would have led low to ♣K instead of the J, to guard against a nasty ♣ split.)

 

I am not questioning the methodology as you have laid it out; I am questioning valuing the North hand at only 12 total points. The GIB system notes say:

Gib uses both old fashioned HCP (A=4,K=3,Q=2,J=1)) and “Total points” (HCP+3 for void, 2 for singleton, 1 for doubleton).

I would expect the North hand to be valued at 12HCP plus 1 for the doubleton, making 13 total points.

[Antrax]

When I was taught this evaluation method, I was told not to count a suit "twice". So if you count the ♣K, you can't also count the club doubleton. Otherwise a singleton Q is as good as an ace, etc. So to me, N #1 looks like 12 "total points"

[georgi]

Yes, if the K♣ was K♠ and same shape, same hand would be evaluated to 13TP.

[Bbradley62]

I guess I learned the old-fashioned way that "protected" honors counted both ways: a singleton A counts as both an A and a singleton, but a singleton K doesn't; a doubleton K counts as both a K and a doubleton, but a doubleton Q doesn't. When I have time, I'm sure I will find plenty of counter-examples where GIB appears to double-count. In the meantime, can someone who is familiar with the internals of recent updates let us know whether the hand-evaluation methodology has changed recently? Thanks.