Is the Multi 2 Worth it?

[32519]

Good for you!

 

Never let facts get in the way of whatever weird ass opinions you've developed out in the bush...

Netherlands is a bit of the land of secretary birds so you will get lynched if you disclose your 5-5 agreement as Muiderberg. It must be exactly 5 in the major and 4-8 in the minor. Sometimes people will call it Muiderzand, Modderheuvel etc because they are afraid of running into troubles with opps or directors with idiosyncratic ideas about what exactly "Muiderberg" is supposed to mean.

I will say this one more time. To specify Muiderberg as 5M4-8m is nothing but a hoax, maybe to intimidate all players from novice to intermediate. I don’t believe that players from advanced upwards will fall for the hoax. Just look at these odds:

1. Exactly 5M4m 5-10 HCP = 1.03% X 2 = 2.06%

2. Exactly 5M5m 5-10 HCP = 0.32% X 2 = 0.64%

3. Exactly 5M6m 5-10 HCP = 0.05% X 2 = 0.10%

4. Exactly 5M7m 5-10 HCP = ?

5. Exactly 5M8m 5-10 HCP = ?

 

The last two are so remote that BBOs deal generator fails to spit out a probability percentage. To open 5M4m when red or partner is already a passed hand is just asking for trouble. No doubt there are some who OCCASIONALLY DO OPEN A 5M4m Muiderberg (most likely when the HCP are concentrated in the minor suit and white and 1st or 2nd seat). I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 5M4m MUIDERBERG AT THE TABLE. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN 5/5.

 

Calling it Modderheuvel is appropriate. Translated into English it means Mud-Hill!

 

Go figure?

[helene_t]

32519:

 

that it is a bad idea to open 2M with 5-4 is your opinion which you are entitled to. lots of good bridge players agree with you at least when vulnerable.

 

that the definition of Muiderberg is 5-4+ according to all serious sources and the vast majority of players who call their 2M openings "Muiderberg" is simply a fact.

 

Please distinguish between these two issues.

 

I don't like liver sausage. But that doesn't make me define "liver sausage" as something I do like, for example a dish made of mashed apples, crumbles and cream.

 

By the same token, you don't like Muiderberg. That shouldn't make you define "Muiderberg" as 5-5. Just acknowledge that Muiderberg is 5-4+ and say that you don't like Muiderberg.

[Vampyr]

I will say this one more time.

Why do I somehow doubt this?

[gwnn]

Why do I somehow doubt this?

He did not say "exactly one more time," did he?

[hrothgar]

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 5M4m MUIDERBERG AT THE TABLE. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN 5/5.

 

I am also willing to wager that you have never seen Mt Rushmore...

 

This doesn't mean that Mt Rushmore doesn't exist.

Rather, it reflects the fact that you live in a podunk town in South Africa and probably don't get out that much...

[Winstonm]

Don't play multi 2♦ just to be playing it. You need a systemic reason, so that the gains from using 2♦ is related just as much, or perhaps even more, due to the other bids that you free up because you have the 2♦ bid available.

 

 

This is such good advice that it should be required reading.

 

The only time I used multi was when I played the system Alan Sontag popularized in Power Precision, and in that the multi 2D covered the strong 4441 hands (16-24) and the weak 2H, while 2H was used as Flannery, and 2S was natural weak 2, if memory serves.

 

But the basic reason multi 2D was in the system was to have a way to bid strong 4441 hands without opening 1C.

[hrothgar]

Here's a couple numbers that folks might find illuminating:

 

First: Assume that North holds exactly 5 spades and either 4 or 5 clubs.

The frequency with which South holds a misfit (which I am defining as 0-1 Spades AND there is a 7 card or club fit) is only about 7.4%

 

Second: Let's assume that the misfit happens

 

Roughly 62% percent of time, South with have a red suit with length >= 6.

North South will have an 8+ card fit in one of the red suits about 59% of the time.

 

The disastrous 4-3 fit at the three level which seems to obsess 32519 is relatively rare.

If the opponents do double us for penalty, we'll often be able to scramble to a better fit.

Add in the fact that the opponents don't have perfect information in choosing whether to double or compete and the odds that you get nailed seem quite slim.

 

Please note: This sim does not constrain the East hand in any way. Feel free to introduce your own assumptions regarding what constitutes a double or an overcall...

 

two_spades = spades(north) == 5 and (clubs(north) == 4 or clubs(north) == 5)
misfit = (spades(north) + spades(south) < 7) and  (clubs(north) + clubs(south) <= 7)

condition

two_spades and misfit

action

average diamonds(south) >= 6 or hearts(south) >= 6,
average diamonds(south) + diamonds(north) >=8  or hearts(south) + hearts(north) >= 8

[Zelandakh]

Thanks hrothgar. This was the point I was making in the other thread, only I thought it might be more educational for 32519 to calculate this for himself.

[jdeegan]

Against well-prepared opponents, it causes fewer problems than natural weak 2s would (as they have extra room, and an extra round of bidding). Against poorly prepared opponents it will probably give you a few extra good scores!

 

I use 2♦ as a weak 2 in ♦. Pre-empts in a minor are surprisingly effective. For instance, if LHO is 5-3 in the majors, he can overcall in his longer one and risk missing a fit in the other, or make a take out double and risk ending up in the wrong major. This is especially true at the 3 and 4 level, but still true at the 2 level.

:P I will second your observation about the disruptive effect of the ♦ suit weak two bid. Often the dangerous opponent with all the high cards will not have enough length in both majors.

[Free]

Here's a couple numbers that folks might find illuminating:

 

First: Assume that North holds exactly 5 spades and either 4 or 5 clubs.

The frequency with which South holds a misfit (which I am defining as 0-1 Spades AND there is a 7 card or club fit) is only about 7.4%

 

Second: Let's assume that the misfit happens

 

Roughly 62% percent of time, South with have a red suit with length >= 6.

North South will have an 8+ card fit in one of the red suits about 59% of the time.

 

The disastrous 4-3 fit at the three level which seems to obsess 32519 is relatively rare.

If the opponents do double us for penalty, we'll often be able to scramble to a better fit.

Add in the fact that the opponents don't have perfect information in choosing whether to double or compete and the odds that you get nailed seem quite slim.

 

Please note: This sim does not constrain the East hand in any way. Feel free to introduce your own assumptions regarding what constitutes a double or an overcall...

 

two_spades = spades(north) == 5 and (clubs(north) == 4 or clubs(north) == 5)
misfit = (spades(north) + spades(south) < 7) and  (clubs(north) + clubs(south) <= 7)

condition

two_spades and misfit

action

average diamonds(south) >= 6 or hearts(south) >= 6,
average diamonds(south) + diamonds(north) >=8  or hearts(south) + hearts(north) >= 8

NIcely done Richard, but needless to say, 32519 will not believe these numbers... ;)