Three card major raises...

[inquiry]

In the beginner discussion group, the question comes up if you raise with three card support after an auction like 1C-(p)-1S-(p)-?

 

If you do not, skip this thread. There are a lot of you, and we leave you to your own devices. This is for the elightened (few?) who raise frequently.

 

A number of questoin were raised in the beginner thread, and I think it is time to see how we "advanced+" players handle the auction.

 

A few question,

 

1) how do you limit your hand with the three card raise (approximate maximum hcp range, approximate value raise counting distribution).

 

2) Can you have a good six card minor and still raise?

 

3) If 1c-1S-2S-3c forcing?

 

4) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-2NT (natural, asking, other?)

 

5) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-3S

 

6) What kind of hand with 3 card support is too good for the direct raise, and how do you bid that?

 

If you haven't already considered these questions, I suspect it is best if you don't raise on three card support. So I assume most will ahve answers to some of these.

[mr1303]

In my limited opening system (16+ 1C, 4+ 1D), we have this strongly defined when we can raise with 3 card support. I'm replacing 1C 1S 2S with 1D 1S 2S

 

1) If the raise is made on a 3 card suit, it'll be based on our 11-13 balanced hand. A bid of 1NT here will deny a small doubleton in one of the unbid suits, and 1 of the suits will be properly stopped

 

2) We can raise with 3 cards and a good 6 card minor, but we use 2NT for this bid. Since 2NT has no normal meaning in a limited opening system, we lose nothing by bidding this way, especially as we pass with weak hands without a fit.

 

3) 1D 1S 2S 3D is not forcing, but is a game invitation. With any 4 card support for spades we return to at least 3 spades. We are only able to pass this since 1D always promises 4 diamonds.

 

4) 2NT is natural and invitational, suggesting only 4 spades

 

5) 3S is asking for good trumps here (AQx is good trumps, xxxx is bad trumps.) Responder will have 5 cards for this bid

 

6) See 2. We like to open 1NT (12-15, maybe 4414) a lot, as we have good agreements over 1NT openings), and anything stronger is opened 1C. With 3145/4154 shape we rebid 2C, unless the minors are weak and the spades are strong.

[whereagles]

I also used to do this sort of raise in the context of limited openings, which is where I think it works better. I didn't do it with a balanced hand, though (bid 1NT, pard can always correct with 5 in major).

 

I'm not particularly fond of it, but wouldn't argue with a pard that wishes to play it.

[inquiry]

1) Limit of my raise to 2M, is around 13 hcp.. it can be 14, but it must be pretty balanced hand, certainly no side singleton. I open 14-16 1NT.

 

2) My direct raise to 2 can not be on three card suit with a good six card minor. For like Mr1303, I have a special bid for this.. but it is not 2NT (I have another use for that), it is a jump rebid of my minor, which is not forcing, btw.

 

3) Yes indeed, I also play 1m-1M-2M-3m as not forcing, but opener is expected to return to the major with a four card fit, and pass only with minimum hand and three card major support.

 

4) I use 1m-1M-2M-2NT as 1RF, asking opener for more information. It is a solid game try, if not game force. So two bids opener has to be wary of with more than a minimum, 3 of the minor and 3 of the major.

 

5) The question of how best to play the re-raise to 3 is still open for speculation. II am not sure what the best use of it is, especially if 2NT is used as a general game try. I use it primarily as blocking.

 

6) We have two unusual agreements. The first is that 1m-1M-2NT is "jacoby 2NT by opener" showing good 4 card support and a hand too strong for an immediate 3M raise. Our immediate 3M raise is very narrowly defined... about 15-16 points (counting distribution). 2NT is not game force, but we use the same kind of jacoby 2NT plus reponses by responder as used by opener of 1M and hearing a 2NT response (3C being, dead minimum, etc). Wtihtout 2NT to show balanced 17+, we use new minor forcing by opener. So here we would bid, for instance 1D-1S-2C as 100% forcing. IF we raise the major now, this shows a hand too good for the immediate 2S raise, and of course if we rebid 2NT we show the balanced hand.

 

Ben

[gabika73]

1. Max 13(-14) HCP. It cannot be of great playing strength.

 

2. I raise M with weak 6card minor and strong major holding. I rebid minor with the opposite (since this can be as strong as 17, partner is expected to keep the auction alive, if not bare minimum...). If in between, I will raise if partner is better player - as Kantar put it...;-)

 

3. Same as Ben. Though, for me, all 3level bids (below 3M) are NF INV (i.e. new minor shows INV hand 5+ minor, 4 major.).

 

4. F1 INV with these responses

 

5. 3S shows 5cards, and generally wants good trumps for game.

 

6. Hands with good 6carder, 14+ HCP in 3154, etc. I make up some bid (mostly 2m or 2om), and show support next round.

We jump(-shift) with real strong hands, so responder is expected to continue after 2om.

[EricK]

I play a weak NT, which obviously affects which hands will raise on a 3 card suit.

 

1) Nearly every minimum hand with 3 card support will raise. Because of weak NT, it will nearly always have a singleton except...

 

2)...if there is a six card minor! I will often raise on the 3 card suit, but if the suit is xxx, and the minor is strong then I will probably rebid the minor - especially if there is no singleton.

 

3) A belated support of opener's minor shows exactly 4 of the major, genuine support (usually 5+) and is a non-forcing game try.

 

4) 2NT again promises exactly 4 of the major, and ask for clarification - minimum bids will confirm 3 card support, higher bids promise 4

 

5) Invitational, 6 card suit, probably no help in opener's minor (with a semblance of a double fit, there is no point in inviting)

 

6) A strong NT type will rebid 1NT. A new suit (non-reverse) is nearly forcing and we will do that on most unbalanced non-minima.

 

Eric

[Flame]

We play Polish club and 15-17 NT

1. 12-14 (see 6)

2. no i will bid 2c , or speciall 3c that show 15-17 6 clubs and 3 card support.

3. inv nf.

4.natural inv,with 4 cards major. this is good at mp, and its simple, but maybe we will change it one day.

5. 3sp would have 5 card spade, inv, asking for good trumps, since any other 3 would be trail bid.

6. I saw many bid 2sp with very narrow hcp count, i think this is wrong, you will have a big problem with unbalance hand without 4 card support. that is just a bit too strong for 2sp, i think its not a big mistake to strech the 2sp bid, for example

14 hcp 3145 this is very strong, but what are the alternatives ?

over 2sp, if partner have a balance hand with 4 card spade, then if he has no bid we are fine in 2sp, if he have 5 card spade he doesnt need too much to continue.

Sure this isnt perfect but i dont think the alternatives like 2c would be better since partner would definelty pass 2c with a hand he would have passed 2sp.

[Cascade]

We play weak NT and four-card majors if that is relevant.

 

1) how do you limit your hand with the three card raise (approximate maximum hcp range, approximate value raise counting distribution).

 

We raise fairly freely with three-card support and a minimum opener around 11-15 hcp.

 

2) Can you have a good six card minor and still raise?

 

No. This adds definition when we show three card support later - partner will know that our first suit is a good six-card suit.

 

3) If 1c-1S-2S-3c forcing?

 

I need to check with my partner. Forcing I checked.

 

For us this cannot be long clubs. As with 10+ points and four or more clubs we would make a fit jump immediately.

 

4) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-2NT (natural, asking, other?)

 

This is a generic force. It is used to enquire about four-card support and strength. It also adds definition to our new suit game tries which will always be a real two-suiter.

 

This and a new suit can be a slam try hand.

 

5) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-3S

 

Invitational with long spades. Some of these hands will bid 2NT though. I would expect that 3♠ will not have a singleton.

 

6) What kind of hand with 3 card support is too good for the direct raise, and how do you bid that?

 

Around 16+.

 

We would bid a new suit.

 

On some auctions with a good six-card suit we can show three-card support for responder along with our six-card suit.

[the hog]

1) how do you limit your hand with the three card raise (approximate maximum hcp range, approximate value raise counting distribution).

Playing a weak NT, the raise nearly always shows an unbalanced min

 

2) Can you have a good six card minor and still raise?

Yes, but the minor would be weakish

 

3) If 1c-1S-2S-3c forcing?

Yes, we play this as Richard has already suggested

 

4) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-2NT (natural, asking, other?)

Forcing, asking for amount of support.

 

5) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-3S

Pre empt

 

6) What kind of hand with 3 card support is too good for the direct raise, and how do you bid that?

The Bridge World hand of death is too good for a raise. There are some ways and means around this. In a big C system eg an artificial 2N can be used to show 14-15 and 3 card M support. Playing standard methods, this is always going to be a problem hand.

[luke warm]

i'm trying to learn a canape system that incorporates 12-15 nt (btw mike, where's that book? :rolleyes:), so this will never come up (if i understand a little right now)...

 

for example, if i open 1D (11-15 hcp) and pard bids 1H, this is a weak relay asking for my 2nd suit.. if pard bids 1S, this guarantees 5 pcs and is also not forcing... 1nt is 10+ and the only forcing bid (again, this is from memory, i need that book)

[MickyB]

That's interesting Luke, I'm looking at a very similar system atm, but I don't think I am the Mike that you are referring to! What is the book called?

 

In one of my partnerships, I played weak NT and short club. One of the advantages of a weak NT is that 1m:1M, 2M can't be a balanced minimum - If you promise 4 card support then the weakest hand you can have is a 2425 12 count. Unbalanced minimums with 3 card support tend to be a fair bit weaker than this, losing some of the advantage - previously 10 counts with a 4 card major could just bid game, now they have nowhere to go. I think that 1m:1M, 2M:3m has to be invitational, because then the 10 count with a 4 card major has a stopping place if he also has 3 cards in the minor.

 

I would rebid a 6 card club suit in preference to raise a major on 3 cards (because I've only shown 2 clubs) but I would raise instead of rebidding a 6 card diamond suit (because I've almost promised 5 diamonds).

 

I'm surprised by the number of people who play 2NT as a forcing enquiry. Then again, most have said that they play 2M as very limited in HCP, only Cascade combined 2N forcing with 2M wide-ranging (11-15).

[luke warm]

micky, i'm not sure what the name of the book is... i *think* it's 'simple club' by larry weiss

 

i play weak nt now, so that isn't a change (we've even agreed to play my response structure)... in this system, let's say it goes 1d : 1s ... now i can support with 3 because 1s promised 5

[hrothgar]

i'm trying to learn a canape system that incorporates 12-15 nt (btw mike, where's that book? :rolleyes:), so this will never come up (if i understand a little right now)...

 

for example, if i open 1D (11-15 hcp) and pard bids 1H, this is a weak relay asking for my 2nd suit.. if pard bids 1S, this guarantees 5 pcs and is also not forcing... 1nt is 10+ and the only forcing bid (again, this is from memory, i need that book)

If any of you are interesting in learning/practicing MOSCITO, drop me a line....

[helium]

I play strong nt and i never raise whit a 3 card supp unless i have a singelton/void or the 3 card "looks like 4 cards" like AKQ or AKJ KQJ

and never whit a 6 cards minor

 

kenneth